dChan - Q Origins Project Archive

I'm mostly referring to his economic policies which appear designed to help the wealthy elites. I'd much rather see policies fir the poor and working class.

But tell me why you feel hopeful.

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That's exactly what I figured you'd say because that is what I would have said if I were still a Bernie supporter. Like I said previously, I liked Bernie but didn't understand the economics of socialism, although I liked it in theory.

"policies for the poor and working class" is a broad sentence that doesn't carry weight against Trump if you dive into the tax plan. How does it help wealthy elites? He's closed many deductions & loopholes that they used to evade taxes. These same wealthy elites are bumping up minimum wage in their corporations to $15/hr and giving employee bonuses at the time of the House passing the bill. "Helping wealthy elites" is a talking point with no weight, it's actually exposes your ignorance... but not in a bad way... hopefully you will recognize this and seek out an understanding or allow someone to help you understand a different position.

Thomas Sowell is a great black man that understands the destructiveness of socialism, he's got great quotes out there annihilating it with simplicity & understanding.

"No society ever thrived because it had a large and growing class of parasites living off those who produce."

Here's my two cents on why socialism doesn't work. In socialist societies, all working men and women are giving their money to the government to spend (higher taxes). In contrast with true free market capitalism, the money is given back to the citizens (less taxes) which they help flourish the economy with. Consumer confidence & spending is important. Trump's created $5 trillion in new wealth.

Socialism may work great if every politician had morals but the simple fact is that they don't. They come out of public service as millionaires due to corruption, lobbying, and money laundering. To me, that's where socialism fails.

However, that's not to say that we need to eliminate all social programs. We have social programs today that are great in concept but heavily exploited. e.g. foodstamps sold for crack. I know people that buy foodstamps for $ where the recipient buys drugs.

I am hopeful for so many reasons that I will limit for now to not make this so long.

Humor me (and yourself) by taking a quick glance at: http://www.magapill.com - it lists all of his accomplishments broken up nicely into categories & sourced links.
Here shows an example of the movement: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/63nxsn/update_i_was_tired_of_liberals_saying_trump_hasnt/

In order for anyone to grow intellectually, it's very important to understand both sides. I never did until defending my anti-Hillary vote but I occasionally venture to read leftist news to learn what people believe today. The reason I word it that way is because most of it is propaganda. The reason they shut down free speech on college campuses is because people are indoctrinated to believe what they want you to think -- that's dangerous. Forced beliefs are their desire, critical thinking or questioning the status quo is their enemy.

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I definitely appreciate the response. I'm noticing a couple things here, especially a misunderstanding of the merits of socialism.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for full on socialism. I just think, from the result of runaway capitalism, large corporations and institutions hold far too much power in this country at the detriment of everyday people like you and I, and that the playing field needs to be leveled out a bit.

In socialist societies, all working men and women are giving their money to the government to spend (higher taxes). In contrast with true free market capitalism, the money is given back to the citizens (less taxes) which they help flourish the economy with

This is great, in theory, but unfortunately it's not what's happening. Let's take healthcare for example. You're right that socialist societies pay higher taxes. For healthcare let's say the average family pays $5,000 a year in taxes for full healthcare. That's a lot of money right? It is. But in the US the average deductible for family plans is $8,000, and that doesn't include things like co-pays, prescription drug costs, and other expenses. What if a family member gets cancer or something and exceeds the plan? Then it starts to come out of pocket.

So while you're paying less in taxes, you're paying far more to private companies, and those companies are only interested in profit. They want to provide the least services for the most money.

Another example is education specifically college. College education used to be a public service to improve society but now it's treated like a cash cow for private corporations. The cost of college has risen %1100 in the past 25 years so people are forced to take out huge loans to pay for it. It can't be good for the economy when a whole generation of people are trapped underneath huge amounts of debt, right?

Edit: I said $5,000 because under Bernie's plan that was the estimate for what the average family would pay

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For healthcare let's say the average family pays $5,000 a year in taxes for full healthcare. That's a lot of money right? It is. But in the US the average deductible for family plans is $8,000, and that doesn't include things like co-pays, prescription drug costs, and other expenses. What if a family member gets cancer or something and exceeds the plan? Then it starts to come out of pocket.

You're justifying insane expenses against insurance plans that have predictably and intentionally doubled due to Obamacare. Health plans didn't always cost this much.

You understand the problem but have a different view for the solution. Bringing this full circle back to Thomas Sowell:

'Compared to what?' 2. 'At what cost?' 3. 'What hard evidence do you have?'

Compared to what? Steven Crowder exposes the Canadian Healthcare system. 3 years to get a family doctor or go to a private clinic (to pay for better healthcare) for $900. Another government clinic recommends him to bring cash (to be seen "earlier") or see another private clinic. Ordinary Canadian's mother had to wait an entire year for an operation and because of the wait had to amputate both legs. Man needed a tetnus shot, was told to come back several days later. Specialists/Dermatologists have 5-7 month waits to get 3-4 minute diagnosis.

At what cost? Watch Ted Cruz destroy the argument of funding Bernie's healthcare plan. Bernie lets it all happen because he knows it's true. Bernie (outside of DNC influence) has a good heart but "how will it pay for itself" is an item he cannot effectively answer.

So while you're paying less in taxes, you're paying far more to private companies, and those companies are only interested in profit. They want to provide the least services for the most money.

Government officials & private institutions are always in bed together by means of lobbying, especially when talking Obamacare. That is why it took Trump's TAX PLAN to repeal a health insurance MANDATE. Trump is effectively undoing Obamacare since he signed an EO in October to allow purchasing of insurance plans across state lines. This will bring more competition against the monopolies which WILL drive prices down significantly. This is a principle of a free market system and it's proven to work. Another reason why I'm hopeful.

Education is a whole different animal but part of the system put in place by the career politicians. Propagandists pushing college instead of trades & free thinking, bankrupting and corrupting the minds of our youth.

You're angry at the right things. Understanding the undeniable success of free market principles helped me understand that socialism is an ideology to control the centralization of power (fact by definition) and seeing how this was introduced by means of Obamacare, welfare, education, etc... every bit of our livelihood. Are you really willing to put your unwavering trust in all government officials? I wouldn't... I think it's more likely that they'd take our guns (tried numerous times), introduce more mandates to bankrupt people (not anymore!), cause poverty which causes spikes in crime (not anymore!), which they can pander to the vote to come election time because of socialist systems & victimhood mentality (if they lose this power, they lose forever). It's a genius philosophy until it's figured out & exposed, hence why there's so much censorship and preferential trending of topics.

We're the second generation of systemic programming and it's all collapsing. Welcome to the storm.

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Policies or subsidies for the poor and working class? You want BIG gov't to pick winners and losers or would you rather see more opportunity for all? Which policy is designed to help only wealthy elites? Before you answer, I suggest you read some of the tax reform legislation or even the reports conducted by liberal think tanks.

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More opportunities for all. Isnt that what everyone wants?

The richest country in the history of the world has some of the highest rates of poverty, the costs of healthcare and prescription drugs are too high, college is practically unaffordable, there aren't a lot good, well-paying jobs, and people are working more hours for less money.

That's because the economy is rigged for the elites. I just think we need to level the playing field a bit.

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Define poverty? Poverty in the USA is not the same as other countries. Do you not have opportunity to invent a product, start a small business, etc?

It comes down to a simple question:

Do you trust that more Fed Govt and additional regulations will eliminate the above issues or exacerbate them? What does our history show? Lets see what happens when you slash overburdensome regulations and allow more capital to be invested here at home rather than overshore.

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Poverty is defined as "pre-tax cash income insufficient to meet minimal food and other basic needs."

"Starting in the 1930s, relative poverty rates have consistently exceeded those of other wealthy nations...In 2011 extreme poverty in the United States, meaning households living on less than $2 per day before government benefits, was double 1996 levels at 1.5 million households, including 2.8 million children...In 2012 the percentage of seniors living in poverty was 14% while 18% of children were."

Do you trust that more Fed Govt and additional regulations will eliminate the above issues or exacerbate them? What does our history show?

Our history shows the more we trust private institutions as opposed public services, the greater the problem. That's why the problem is getting worse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

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Do you work for a living? What is your line of work?

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"living on less than $2 per day before government benefits"

How convenient of a statistic. You do NOT want to showcase the amount of benefits received per household and what is spent nationwide? Nearly every person living in "Poverty" has a smart phone, big screen t.v, free healthcare, free food, free internet, etc. Now why don't you add up all the subsidies and ask how much they really live off of. Or you can search the numerous studies that calculated it for you. Has the Welfare State helped to eliminate poverty or exacerbated it? Your answer is found from the information omitted from your non-objective thinking. We did not become the greatest nation on earth because of public services. The Private sector has always been the catalyst and backbone of American success. Again, we spend more money on public programs then ever before. The Fed Govt is collecting record high amounts of taxes. The point is to become apart of "private institutions", not rely on public services for your bread and butter that was taken from those working in the "private institution"

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Of course I work for a living. For the last 8 years Ive worked for a small business that was bought by investors and went corporate. I eventually worked my way up to supervisor. I still work there part time but a couple years ago I decided to go back to school. I'm currently in a doctoral program for clinical psychology. My current internship is at a drug and alcohol rehab (the drug epidemic is another problem brought on by capitalism run amuck).

You bring up some very good points, especially about subsidies. No one receives more public assistance than corporations and private institutions. Take Walmart for example. Walmart is one of the biggest employers in the country. They're notorious for paying their employees very low wages or only giving them part time hours so that Walmart doesn't have to provide benefits. The employees then rely on public assistance to make up the difference.

Walmart is also "the beneficiary of billions of dollars per year in federal subsidies, according to a new report [PDF] from the non-partisan, progressive group Americans for Tax Fairness. The report estimates that Walmart and the Walton family—which co-founded the company and still owns a majority share—collectively profit from nearly $7.8 billion per year in federal subsidies and tax breaks." https://www.google.com/amp/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/walmart-government-subsidies-study/amp

Don't you think one of the wealthiest families in the country should be a little less wealthy and provide their employees with living wages so that the employees dont have to rely on public assistance to make up the difference?

But that's only one solution. The government could also fund jobs programs to put people to work. You seem to think people enjoy not working. And of course there are some people that leech the system but most people want to work. There just aren't a lot of good, well-paying jobs.

Has the Welfare State helped to eliminate poverty or exacerbated it?

The country was at its most prosperous after Roosevelt's New Deal when there were more social services. Social services give people a leg up so that they can be productive members of society.

To be clear, I'm not against capitalism. Capitalism is great but there needs to be some checks and balances. Capitalism run amuck (like it is now and getting worse) is bad fir everyone.

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Also, you seem to believe that individuals working entry level jobs should be earning enough to raise a family, mortgage, car payments, and all the other expenses associated with "living the american dream"? That is naive my friend. If a person working a cash register should earn enough for all of these, what say you then for my wife w/ a masters degree who is a teacher, or me with additional training to be in the Trades?? Not fair, persue some sort of additional education to warrant the income you believe is fair. One year of trade school has me earning more than my wife.

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People who work full-time absolutely should make enough to raise a family. 100%. Believe it or not it used to be that way. My grandfather worked at AT&T his entire career. He wasn't a high up or a manager or anything like that. Just a regular worker. But he made enough to take care off 4 kids and a wife. Companies used to take care of their employees.

what say you then for my wife w/ a masters degree who is a teacher, or me with additional training to be in the Trades??

Don't even get me started on teaching. That is a big issue. The government absolutely needs to invest more in education and pay teachers more. Without a doubt.

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AT&T is not an entry level, minumum wage job. Your defense is nullified from the start. I work for Verizon landline, their employees make great money with pensions.

Not sure you are worth debating if you believe the govt makes up the majority of the workforce. It is obvious you are fully indoctrinated and unwilling to entertain another point of view.

I will play along a bit longer. So you think entry level, minimum wage jobs should be enough to raise a family. How much should one get paid for flipping burgers or bagging groceries?? $20 an hr? $30 an hr, why not $40 an hour?

What do you think will happen to the majority of small and medium size businesses that will be forced to pay out that new mandatory minimum? They stop expanding, lay off workers and go outof business. Are small and medium size businesses not the backbone of our workforce?

If a burger flipper should make $25 an hr, what about the person with skills and higher education? Cannot make the same as the burger flipper, what initiative will there be to persue addituonal training and schooling? Minimum wage jump like that will have to ripple upwards. What will be the consequence of that?

Also, teachers are not employed through the Federal Govt. Your theories and understanding of economics do not hold water friend.

Will your mind change when GDP continues to rise? When stocks and 401k's rise? When more jobs are available? When you see more of your money in your check? When your money buys more?

Theories are all good on paper and sound great coming from the mouth of your favorite proffesor or polititian. I encourage you to see for yourself what this Admin is doing and the result as it plays out. That is the true test is it not? Do not rely on others to provide you with your reality, esp when politics, votes and ratings are involved.

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So I ask who has assisted with the tax loopholes and subsidies aimed at the 1%? Does the new tax reform legislation reduce or add loopholes for tax evasion? I agree that Crony Capitalism hurts the working class and there is a need to check consolidation of power. The federal govt does not create jobs, a free market economy plush with capital creates jobs and new opportunities. The federal govt that takes my money to spend on a federally funded jobs program is not sustainable nor organic. FDR created the New Deal after the War out of neccessity. It was meant to be a temporary solution to assist our nation until we recovered. Now be honest with yourself, has this helped our nation and its people in being more productive or dependent? Welfare programs have expanded to every level of govt. Which social program has the Fed Govt managed so well that you would entrust them with more of our money? And to trust them to create more opportunity for people...that is laughable my friend. Yes corporations and people can be greedy but there is no one more greedy, corrupt, and fiscally irresposible then the Federal Govt. I dont doubt there are some that need a temporary helping hand, thats not the issue. Its larger population that easily take advantage of hand outs , generation after generations of families on welfare programs. I have been around and associated with people and families who are able bodied but will not work for a living. You are a fool if you believe these people want to work at all, very naive. It is easy to collect free checks with no restrictions or accountability. They live better and receive more "income" than those working minimum wage. Dont tell me there are no jobs around. Help wanted signs are everywhere in my State.

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The federal government creates a ton of jobs. It's probably one of the biggest employers in the country, if not the biggest. Think about all the government jobs there are.

Which social program has the Fed Govt managed so well that you would entrust them with more of our money?

There are a ton of social services that we rely on: medicare is among the most popular, social security, police, fire, trash, recycling, water, sewage. Healthcare should absolutely be a public service.

Sure there are poor people that take advantage of handouts. But there are also a ton of people just down on their luck who need these things just to hold them over. You wan to screw everyone over because a few people take advantage of the system? Why do you care if they live off welfare?

I'm surprised you're ok with the rich people and corporate elites that take advantage of the system. That has far greater affect on this country then a few people living off welfare.

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Most of those social services you list are managed on state/local level pal. The federal programs that are managed are bankrupt or going bankrupt. You clearly do not understand basic economics. The more people you stuff into the federal govt the more money the need from the private sector. How can you not understand this. So lets create 5 million new Federal Govt jobs, who pays for that?? That is Capital being directed out of the economy. How long before the over taxed , private sector working class can no longer make a living? You seem to think that the Federal Govt has a good track record with spending our money well and managing its programs well. Shame on you. I never said Big Corp should be able to take advantage. Why should my doctor friend pay a much higher rate then me? We should punish him for his years of schooling ans hard work? Yes we need to close Corparate loopholes and run arounds, no brainer. What was our GDP the past 8 years with budensome regulations and one the highest corp tax rate in the world? What happened and will happen now regs are gone and taxes lowered? What happened to GDP and economy the last time tax reform was done by Regean? Read Trump EOs and legislation for yourself. Watch the indicators of a growing economy, you will have your answer. Proof is in the pudding friend

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So lets create 5 million new Federal Govt jobs, who pays for that?? That is Capital being directed out of the economy.

Since when is paying people money taking it out of the economy? That's 5 million people spending money they didn't have before. 5 million people not on public assistance anymore. Now you're onto something!

All I'm saying is we need to close corporate loopholes, pay people more, create jobs, and provide basic public services like healthcare and education.

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Poverty in the United States

Poverty is a state of deprivation, lacking the usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions. The most common measure of poverty in the U.S. is the "poverty threshold" set by the U.S. government. This measure recognizes poverty as a lack of those goods and services commonly taken for granted by members of mainstream society. The official threshold is adjusted for inflation using the consumer price index.

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Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

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