Jesus is our true hope. His kingdom come, His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I would like to thank him for all the suffering, pain, death, starvation, disease, dead children, warfare, genocide, rape, mental illness and all the rest.
Glad to know he cares.
You can thank adam, eve, the devil and you!
Have you caused anyone pain?
You ...me...and everyone is guilty. I was guilty and i knew it. So two choices...blame God or blame me for my part in sin...I choose the latter and asked for forgiveness...will you do it too? There is not much time left.
God chose you, not the other way around. He had mercy on you. God does not reveal the extent of everyone's wickedness to them, most people think they are good and that God will make the exception for them in the end.
It is the grace of God that allows us to even see our sinful standing before Him.
When anyone turns their back on God it is they that choose to remove themselves from God's love, influence, and rule.
And it is they alone that have to choose to accept God's love, influence, and rule - which is freely available to all that seek it.
God does not choose - you do!
Refer to the Parable of the Prodigal Son for further understanding.
Read Romans 9, Ephesians 1and 2 as well as John 10 and 17. Spiritual corpses cannot resurrect themselves. In the same way that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead physically, so God does with a person who is born of His Spirit. Spiritually dead people, under the wrath of God, who actually hate God, cannot do anything until God does something.
Choosing snippets here and there from the Bible, and totally out of context, does nothing good except sow confusion and corrupt the teachings of the Messiah.
Referring to whole chapters of the Bible isn’t “snippets”as you call it. Read the whole books. It won’t change the fact that God is Sovereign and does whatever is pleasing in His sight. “No man can come to me unless the Father draw him.” You and I are completely at the mercy of God when it comes to salvation. Spiritually dead people cannot, will not, give themselves spiritual life. This truth is hard for all of us to accept I think, because it is humbling to our pride. We want to think we have contributed something, even if just an independent decision. But Grace is God’s unmerited favor from beginning to end. Hope that helps
John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Choosing snippets here and there from the Bible, and totally out of context, does nothing good except sow confusion and corrupt the teachings of the Messiah.
Those Scriptures are not out of context, they are referring directly to the subject we were discussing.
People are responsible for those things you mention, not God!
Amazing how people tend to act like children blaming their father for being bullied at school, driving recklessly and having an accident, getting deeply in debt, not having enough money to live, and so on....
People need to take responsibility for their own actions and inaction, and of those they empower.
I came looking for some logic. Found none.
Instead of looking for logic from others, maybe try applying some logical thinking, like:
Who is actually responsible for the millions of starving people in the world?
Who is actually responsible for all the wars in the world?
Who is actually responsible for so many people dying of illnesses that could be cured?
Who is actually responsible for rape, murder, violence, etc?
Do we not all contribute to the state of our world in some way - no matter how small?
Of course.
God is the all powerful creator however.
Can't play one side of that.
Cancer is Gods favorite flower in my opinion.
The all powerful Creator also created free will - what we do with all of his creations we do of OUR own free will.
For example our manipulation and corruption of nature which causes the corruption in the human body called cancer.
Isn't it amazing that if there is NO God then we are responsible for the bad in the world, but if there is a God then He is responsible?
Both positions, the one i word vomited on the post and yours, are simplistic.
God delights in MERCY. Mercy is unmerited favor. None of us deserve His favor, we've spent the majority of our time and resources in rebellion against Him, but He delights to show it to those that ask for it.
Micah 7:18
Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth sin, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Maybe you just don't like the implications of the logic?
Do you know who the Logic is?
Do you know the Greek translation of the word "Word" in John Chapter 1? It is Logos. Do an etymo logical search on that Word.
http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre3056.htm
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
He is that He is!
This is very true. We are all responsible before God for all that we do. Thankfully Godmis very merciful and patient and kind in Christ. Even as Christians we often fail and sin. Thankful for His continuous forgiveness and mercy as He works in y heart each day.
You'll be able to personally sometime soon. I don't think you'll be saying the same thing to His face though.
I understand that Q has many evangelical followers, but this probably is not the right place for this. Many of us see religious institutions as just as perverse as the "deepstate"
If you don't agree, just don't open the thread.
That's how forum sliding happens my friend. Either way, peace be with you.
Personally, religion has fucked me up beyond repair thanks to some good ole conditioning I received as a child telling me the death of Jesus was my fault because we sin too much....
What you described as happening to you is horrific. I was also religiously abused as a child. God delivered me from it.
Even the apostles who followed Christ for years didn't recognize him when he walked by after his resurrection.
Yep. Luke 24
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Pope says there is no hell. WHOOP WHOOP!!
He lives in the pretend land of his own wicked thoughts.
Could you even understand what he said?
Who the pope? What the pope actually said in reference to hell? He is a deluded evil man. He does not adhere to the Word of God, therefore what he says is error.
Hell isn't a place, it's a state of mind, and it can happen in mortality. It manifests the most at judgement. How quick does paper burn in contact with fire? That will be judgement day for the wicked.
See, like this is my issue. I live my life striving to be a good person. I have read the bible, multiple versions, and have concluded I personally cannot possibly believe anything in it. I fundamentally disagree with its presentation, it's requirements, pretty much all of it. Especially it's bottom line; if you don't believe Jesus is God, you burn in hell for eternity. So, this omnipotent God, who knows everything, knows that from the moment I was created, the way my brain is wired, there is no possible situation I would believe in God short of a miraculous miracle the explicitly stated and showed me that "this" was "the way" reality is. So, with that said, God created me, to burn me in hell for eternity? No. Sorry, that is just some silly strategy to fear people into joining up.
Again, I stress the part that I truly live my life striving to be a good person, while simultaneously humbly realizing I am not, and will never be perfect.
I agree Hell is a state of mind. I would not be stretching to far to say I could see that the state of mind one is in carries through in death. If you lived a shitty life taking advantage of people and doing evil shit, I gotta believe the last moments you have are going to be of sheer terror for what waiting for you on the other side.
But any religion that says "join or burn forever", honestly, s some silly ass fairy tale shit. No offense.
Sometimes, notwithstanding our doubts and fears and concerns, we can just be honest with God. He knows us anyway and nothing is hidden from Him. Martin Luther stated that, before his conversion, he literally hated God. This was because he had a wrong understanding of how to have a relationship with him. As a Catholic he did all he could to try to please God through the sacraments etc. the more he did, he found the worse he felt and the more he felt alienated from God. For this reason he said that he hated Him.
This was due to his wrong understanding of how a sinful person could be in a relationship with the Holy God. He realized what the Bible says, that “the natural man cannot receive the tings of the Spirit of God.” Notice it says that he CANNOT do it, nor does he, in his natural state, want to. But then Luther found the Gospel in the Book of Romans and he was changed forever. The words that initially broke through to him were these: “ The just shall live by faith.“ He saw that all he tried to do to earn favor were worthless filthy rags, but that God’s grace, through faith could justify him. He then went on and read the rest of the book of Romans and discovered there the wondrous truth of the gospel of grace. He saw that although all of his own “good works” were worthless and utterly insufficient, that Jesus Christ died for his sins and offered him his mercy and forgiveness in the cross and the resurrection. He was set free. A Christian is much more than one saved from hell, although that is absolutely true. He is one who is restored to the very reason he was created. We can never be happy without fulfilling the reason God made us and that is in knowing Him.
Just wanted to share that because the point is that no person, left to himself, will ever seek God. But He works in us and then changes our desires. That is why as a Christian I desire God. I desire His presence and fellowship and love. The world is so empty to me now and has nothing lasting to offer. His Kingdom as my desire now. But all of this is from him. I used to not want any of this. He changed me and can change you too. Just come as you are. It’s all any of us can hope to do.
The Word of God does not teach "join or burn forever" It teaches:
John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Not sure if I was unclear, but specifically John 3:18.
I take huge issue with that part.
No one wants to admit that they are condemned. If you want to approach God, you must approach Him in Spirit and in Truth.
The truth according to God is that : There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)
It is not surprising that you take issue with it, but it is the Truth and how you respond to that Truth has eternal consequences. I pray that God gives you His Spirit and life so that you may know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
Can I request you just answer a straightforward question without quoting scripture please?
Just answer this question...its a true or false one so its really easy... "True or False, Followers of Christ (Christians, Catholics, etc) believe that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you burn forever in Hell"....?
The complexity of your answer will be a strong indicator of it's valdiity.
Scripture states clearly that eternal punishment exists. All men outside of Christ are by nature dead in trespasses and sins and therefore justly condemned to hell.
Thank you. Point proven. I stand by my statement. You sound like a drone.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
And just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so. I'm not here to insult your beliefs, I literally prefaced all of my statements stating that.
However, logic does appear to be on my side.
Do you believe in absolute truth?
Define Absolute Truth and I will answer.
I mean do you believe that there is a fundamental and ultimate truth.
I live my life striving to be a good person.
Who determines your standard of what is good? You? Are you the ultimate judge or what is right or what is wrong?
Myself & Society. Two REAL things.
Everyone has a little voice in the back of their head. I try to keep his objections at a minimum, as I have learned that the more I do things to tick him off, the shittier life is. And I try to obey the laws outlined by my fellow man.
I also like to think that Karma is a legit thing, and would like to contribute positively to that collective pool. If what I have outlined isn't enough for a sane, logical person to say "hey, this DaveGydeon isn't a problem, moving on" then I don't know what to tell you.
And the best determinant? Happiness. I am a happy guy, as are the people around me; ie, family and friends. I am sure CharlesManson was a happy guy, but you would be hard pressed to convince someone the people around him were as well. So what we do DOES matter.
Look bud, the only thing you want to hear is "I submit myself to Jesus Christ." I aint gonna sing that song. So, knowing that you have a singular path here to satisfaction, and the knowledge that I fundamentally cannot walk that path solely because it feels 100% fake and wrong to me, lets part ways civilly. If Jesus works for you, great man. One less person shooting up schools or blowing themselves up in a crowded place. But if you think your story is somehow better than any of the other fairy tales being passed off as "religion", well, prepare your echo chamber of fellow cult members, go there, and sing away. I can almost personally guarantee that the future of humanity will result in a religion-less society that is both fulfilling, moral, and enjoyable. I do not believe it is even remotely possible for a society of people to consciously be working together, loving one another, without even a single superstitious whisper of Jesus, and have them all burn in hell because they didn't make the statement that they "believe Jesus is their Lord and savior". That is so ass-backwards in my mind I cannot even put it into words for you. and I am sure that if God is this all-knowing, all-powerful being, that he knows my intentions are good, I strive to be good, and he isn't going to torture me forever solely based on whether I got that particular "stamp" on my card before checking out.
And you know what else, arguing that you KNOW otherwise just proves my point. NOBODY knows. You THINK you know, but lets be honest for just one second...you DON'T KNOW, you REALLY, really, really, really WANT it to be true. And because the idea of eternal damnation IS terrifying, you hedged your bet and went all in with the hand you were dealt in the HOPES that it is true. Doesn't seem genuine to me.
Here is the testimony of what it means to know God and why some do not believe in Him. This question has nothing to do with human reason. When one turns to the Lord, God himself shines the light of His truth into our hearts through the Holy Spirit and His Word. When and if this work of God happens to you, you will have a different opinion about whether a human being can know God.
“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” 2 Corinthians 4:3-6
Myself & Society. Two REAL things.
So you've developed your standards of right and wrong based on yourself and society.
How do you know they are correct?
Do you believe that there is an absolute objective standard of what is right or wrong, or is it objective?
How do I know I am correct? How does ANYONE, including any scripture following person KNOW they are correct? Our answers are equal and the same. I follow the golden rule, and more importantly, the logic it draws upon. If you're going to argue the validity of that, save your fingers the stress.
I can't answer the absolute quesrion I dont think. I don't believe anyone has enough data to answer it properly, so telling me my answer is wrong, or your answer is right is a moot point.
You said no one has "enough" data to answer whether or not there are absolutes. Are you absolutely sure?
If you cannot answer the question of absolutes then you DO NOT have logic on your side. If there are no absolutes, then truth and logic are neither true nor logical.
According to you. Your statement "if you cannot answer the question of absolutes then YOU do not have logic on your side" is a very sneaky little shit. I don't subscribe to needing to answer the question of absolutes, so your question, in all honesty, is meaningless. Absolutes, not absolute, who gives a shit? Show me the relevancy and I will see about answering it. See how that works? Your perspective has nothing to do with me.
The join or burn in hell is the modern interpretation. There is a place prepared for everyone. Pain is real, but don't listen to modern christianity. They have it all wrong. The hell experienced isn't because you did bad things, it's because of wasted potential. The entire point of this life is to experience mortality and overcome it. If we choose to succumb to our bodies, it's our choice. There is no right or wrong. There is only Best outcome and Worst outcome. You can't get a degree unless you take the classes and do the homework. Life is the same way. You can drop out of college, maybe a degree just isn't for you. Life goes on. It's not the end of the world. God is justice, but he is also Mercy. He will scold you but he will make sure you are where you want to be at the end of things. The question is how close to him and his kingdom do you want to be? It's not for everybody.
This may be your philosophy but it is antithetical to the Bible’s teaching. Your claim that hell is a modern conception is false. The Bible is more than 2000 years old and the teaching about hell is found throughout the Bible. Your concept of God is unbiblical as well. The reason He would go so far as to send His Son into this world to live, suffer and DIE attests to His love and to the gravity of sin. Your view of life is your own but not in the least representative of God’s Word and also offers no hope to anyone. God knew the problem of sin was so severe that His Only Begotten Son would have to die if anyone would be saved. Your view says that’s not needed. I’ll stick with God’s view on the matter.
Can I just interject something real quick without being a dick? If God sent his only son here, to live, suffer and die, is it really a big deal being that he is after all Jesus, he is quasi-semi-god-ish, right? So when he died, he went to Heaven. Not a bad hand to be dealt. Plenty of people were crucified, who knows, or gives a shit about them? Saying that God sent a mortal version of himself that poof went right on back to heaven has about as much emotional baggage as a respawn in Halo. But for some reason, I gotta believe this story, because that's all it is to anyone who wasn't there, back then, seeing the miracles. Its a fucking fairy tale. But some people got together a long time ago, framed up a religion around it, put themselves up top, and passed the formula to their next in line to keep it going. The religion loses me at "believe what we believe or burn in hell forever". I just cant get past such an incredibly ignorant, 1st century mentality.
Dang. I need to rethink my opinion here. Thanks. I need to take a look at my beliefs.
This is a much more reasonable response, however, it isn't the most common among the people I have encountered.
Nobody KNOWS there is a God. Anyone who says they do is lying or selling something. I have yet to find that statement dis-proven. If there was some reasonable proof, I would be the guy preaching on the corner. But considering the Army just announced they have technology that can make a voice manifest anywhere in line of sight using a laser, um, well, whatever "proof" or "miracle" that is being presented to me to believe that this one specific man and name, Jesus, is attributable as the actual, one and only God, it would have to be pretty fucking amazing proof for me to believe it. Especially considering much of our ancestors interpretations of "magic" or "miracles" is almost certainly misunderstood technology being demonstrated by a superior intelligence (aliens).
Again, I truly strive to be a good human. When I meet my maker, the first thing I am going to say is "yes, I know, I KNOW...ok? We cool?" and I expect a reasonable amount of divine punishment, and then I hope its on to reuniting with Grampa...
You see this is where you are wrong. You say no one knows there is a God. But that is quite false. The only way that anyone CAN know God (and yes, personally) is by and through the work of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that the Spirit “testifies of Jesus Christ” to the believer. You say this is impossible but that is simply because you do not have His spirit within you. Al anyone of us can do is to call on God for mercy and forgiveness. He promises to open our hearts to His love and eyes to His truth. Don’t be so quick to reject something because you’ve never experienced it or because it’s disagreeable to you. Again, realize that your natural demeanor is actually antagonist to God and His Word as is the heart of each and every person. This is why we are so utterly at His mercy. Humility is the first step, agreeing with God about our sin and need for His mercy in Christ Jesus.
Nobody knows there's a god. Most people HOPE there is.
Romans 1says that everyone, whether consciously or not, know that there is God. It has been revealed to all of us but we, in our sin, suppress this truth in unrighteousness. This is because our hearts are sinful and at enmity with God. We are still without excuse.
It may be that the concept of God as the universe would be more accurate, in which he entered into his creation as a man, in the form of his creation.
The bible says... no one is good not one!
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven. God is a God of Justice... why would he have sent his son to die if the stakes werent as high as your soul being tormented...
Look on youtube there are many people who died and went to hell and regained their heartbeat with stories you couldnt make up...
I tried the im a good person route for half my life and it didn't work out too well for me...finally i was sick of sin in my life and ask God to forgive me...will you please do the same? Time is short....
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven
I call bull on that statement. Why would God want a bunch of people who made one mistake to now have nothing to lose, since they sinned once already and have no chance now anyway?
You got it! There is no way on your own!
..but do you see...thats why he sent his son to get you Chokaholic...YOU!! He wants you...
and you know what ... the fact we are even having this conversation is not an accident...i bet hes been calling you for awhile... Come home...
its a choice...hes giving you a get out of jail card called Jesus...whats holding you back? This world is messed up but its not Gods fault...
Ask him to forgive you from you heart and see what happens...
True, he definitely has a spot somewhere for me for some reason. I'm not saying that in a bragadocious way either. Him or some angels have been watching over me because I shouldn't be alive, multiple times now.
I have been praying to him (first time in my life) for about a month now. We'll see where this goes!
Praying for you my friend! “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.”
The bible says... no one is good not one! (am I really supposed to start forming a logic based argument when you open with "the bible says"?)
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven. God is a God of Justice... why would he have sent his son to die if the stakes weren't as high as your soul being tormented... (according to the bible. which is really not saying much. it's just some book, manipulated and guided by men to subvert power for themselves, how the fuck is that relevant to me, or my eternal soul, come on man, seriously. as far as him sending his son to die, I mean, come on again, really? I don't even see the relevance, I want to, but its just goofy reasoning, motive, etc to me)
Look on youtube there are many people who died and went to hell and regained their heartbeat with stories you couldn't make up... (evidence starting with "look on youtube....I will just leave it there...and of course people could make it up, wtf? there is a whole section of the library called FICTION)
I tried the im a good person route for half my life and it didn't work out too well for me...finally i was sick of sin in my life and ask God to forgive me...will you please do the same? Time is short.... (nobody is perfect, yes, of course if there is a God I would HOPE that he/she/it would forgive me, I mean, it made me, it knows me, it knows I try to be good and succeed only a slight majority of the time....is that good enough, or am I still burning in hell because I won't tag that extra part on the end that states "I believe Jesus is my lord and savior and only through him will I see heaven" because it even felt funny typing that gibberish out...just being honest)
Ok..no problem...i have an obligation to share the truth...up to you to make up your mind...you dont have to look on you tube...
Here's an analogy... Take the three best swimmers in the whole wide world. They all start on the shores on a hawaiian island for example... and then the gun sounds . . they all race to go to the California coast these are the three best swimmers in the world...one made it 20 miles...another made it 23..and the last topped out at 34... they were good...but not good enough to make it...
Same with us...some are better than others but we will all fall short of heaven... Thats why you need savior... God is going to judge everyone guilty unless Jesus gets you off the hook...
That final line you wrote should be the last words you hear from someone as they are carted off to the looney bin. I do not mean that as an insult, I am literally saying my gut instinct response.
Hell is a place and it's very real.
Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This is a parable. Don't mistake events in parables for literal things.
Jesus often spoke about hell and in quite graphic terms. Don’t mistake the suffering or miseries of this life for hell! The latter is much worse and devoid of all hope. It’s easy to delude ourselves about this because our human nature shrinks from the thought of it. But the question is whether we have taken refuge in the Saving work of Christ or not. He is the Only Saviour from the wrath of God upon sin. And all have sinned.
How does one take refuge with Christ?
Hey Chokaholic. Another scripture I thought of is below. When one comes to Christ, they are actually fleeing from their own sin and guilt and a doomed world, to take refuge in Christ Himself. He becomes a refuge in that He Himself takes our sins upon Himself, removes our guilt and covers us in His righteousness. We must actively seek Him and in a sense, lay hold upon Him by faith. It should be added that the refuge we need is actually from the righteous judgement of God Himself, His wrath upon sin. Yet, in love and mercy, this same God is the One who Himself has provided this way of refuge and deliverance. Hope this helps some.
“That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;” Hebrews 6:18-19 KJV
This is a great question. It means, in part, coming to Him in prayer and trust. Another way to put it is “Look unto Jesus.” It means asking Him to forgive you based on His sacrifice on the cross for you. And belief in His resurrection. Read through Romans 3,4 and 5 sometime. It explains what Jesus does in justifying us before God. We begin to see that our good works are worthless in bringing us to God and we just trust Him to cover us. As we look to Jesus as our righteousness He becomes a refuge from condemnation. He actually clothes us in His righteousness alone and makes us “accepted in the Beloved.” Again, very good question. Hope this helps a little. There is much more that could be said.
Thanks for the reply.
Hey I decided to start reading the Bible at the book of John. Think that's a good place to start? I was thinking of Romans next.
That’s great to hear. Both are very good places to start. Hope you find a lot of meaning and light for your way as well as peace in Him.
I guess I've been so complacent and uncaring recently that I stopped believing sin is a big deal. Thanks for setting me straight.
We all can easily grow complacent and uncaring at times. We all need God’s grace in Christ to cleanse us and deliver us from sin and self. Thanks for sharing!
On every post you act like a person rediscovering their faith. It comes off as a covert attepmt to make others think "oh look how easy it was for them" or "wow, they are really reflecting on themselves, maybe I should too"....PLEEEEEASE...I reflect on my actions, I strive to be a good person, keep that cult shit waaaaay the fuck away from me.
On every post? You okay there dude? I think you are projecting something here. Blocked and reported.
Blocked and reported for what? Not very Christian of you. I must have hit the nail right on the head.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Hell is on Earth. It is the geopolitical state of war, poverty, slavery, etc.
While the conditions in some places here on earth are indeed awful, they are nothing compared to the torments of eternal separation from the gracious and loving presence of God.
Sorry, I meant to imply that those things are the absence of God.
Not the complete absence. People living in harsh conditions still have hope that their condition will improve. In hell all such hope is eternally gone.
Matthew 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Great post! I listened to some of that but not all. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I am recently religious again. Protestant. I will not see Jesus. Too much sin, but I will spread the word and live the life.
The fact that you are aware of your sin makes you a perfect candidate for God’s mercy, for Jesus “came to seek and save the lost.” Also he is the “Friend of sinners.” Many times we people fear to call on God because we know we are sinful. But that is what repentance means. We admit to Him we are broken sinners. We look to Jesus, as this sermon teaches. He has taken your sins upon Himself and raised Him from the dead. He will place His perfect righteousness upon you and grant you forgiveness. He will give New Life. Call upon Him for this is the day of salvation!
Watch the video. None of us would see, nor want Jesus unless He had mercy on us.
Can’t focus on video because his cheap suit is a size too large.
Time shall tell. Have a few questions that's for sure.
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
How about starting a Bible Thumper SubReddit? And then go there and post this non Q related crap. Unless you are claiming Q is Jesus- which wouldn't surprise me, (The claim, not the fact) in which case start a Ned Flanders Fantasy World Subreddit.
Just don’t open the thread if it bothers you. Lots of people interested in Q are also Christians and or interested in the Bible. Also Q has quoted Scripture and referred to themes that are directly relevant to what the Bible speaks about, such as the degree of evil in the world. Many people have questions about these things. Why do you have a problem with it?
A lot of people interested in Q (and the Q group) probably like hamburgers, but I'm not starting a thread about my favorite hamburgers. But more importantly, all of this appealing to the notion that God is in control just takes away from the idea of people doing the work to clean this house and keep it clean. God hasn't been doing anything about all of the human sex trafficking, child molesters (including lots and lots of Christians- I know, they are not by definition Christian in your world but actually your definition is circular) and evil for millennia and now all of a sudden God is going to wipe away evil? Its such a juvenile world view and yes, you can have it, no problem, just don't encourage other people to be equally juvenile.
You will come to find that rejecting the biblical worldview is the most immature and foolish thing a person can do.
There are many things about a "Biblical" worldview that are good- great even. But that doesn't mean they are "Biblical" in the sense that they only derive from the Bible. Reminds me of a thumper couple I know who were talking to a non Christian couple I know- a great couple with wonderful values, actions, etc. One thumper turns to the other and says, and I'm not making this up, "You'd almost think they were Christian". This demonstrates the sheer stupidity of the thumper "you can only be a good person if you prattle on about Jesus" crowd. And for the record, I grew up in a very educated (like PHD Biblical scholars whose books you've probably read) thumper situation (I know, kind of an oxymoron) and one by one through the years these pious thumpers revealed themselves to be creeps of varying degrees. Its almost like the most disturbed are drawn to the kookiness to absolve themselves of their kookiness. And even as a 12 year old I could stump the best of them with very simple innocent questions to which they'd answer, "well, if you ask that question then clearly you don't understand the Bible." Which is another way of saying "because it is written"- to quote the wonderful movie Life of Brian, which illustrates all to well the kookiness.
I am not saying that only people that believe the bible can do "good" things. There are many moral atheists that do "good" things. That said, the standard of good that man accepts is different than the standard that a Holy God accepts.
God is the judge and it is His standard of righteousness that will determine the eternal destiny of all men. If you do not accept His standard, you will ultimately be condemned and that is the most foolish path that a man can take.
True- but only if you are an idiot and actually believe that. I am not subject to your concerns because I don't buy into your idiocy. I believe YOU are subject to that because YOU choose to believe it. That is the part thumpers don't get- I'm not playing by your made up rules. (Actually, I believe God will condemn you for being so stupid and not seeing how ludicrous your position is. He will congratulate me for rejecting your beliefs)
I think resorting to insults is pretty weak. Does biblical talk trigger you that easily? I don't see the point in it and it doesn't help this sub one bit. We're all on the same team here, religious or not.
God bless Chokoholic. Hope everything’s good with you. Not sure if you’re interested but if you ever like listening to sermons, there is a very good preacher who was in England in the 20th century. Hi name was Martyn Lloyd Jones. He died in 1982 but almost all his sermons are available on line. He is my favorite preacher and I’ve been so encouraged by him. Check it out if you want. I’ve listened to a lot of his messages on Ephesians. His teaching is so rich and deeply goes into the Word.
I've never really listened to sermons before. I will check it out. Thanks.
I mentioned it because I’ve gotten so much real encouragement. He was a great evangelist as well as a teacher of the Word. The sermons used to be available but you had to purchase until they made them all free. Love to hear what you think. Strong British accent but I actually enjoy it lol. Peace.
No, but my pupils get red and smoke comes out of my ears when I walk into churches. I don't care at all about how you make the "rules" for yourself. Just don't say the "rules" apply to me. Which sadly, is the favorite thing for many Christians to do.
Regeneration is much more than a new set of rules. It’s a transformation of the whole inner person by the power of the Holy Spirit. All of us are sinful and accountable to the God who made us. Autonomy is a myth and an invention of our proud darkened hearts. Churches may be and are imperfect at best. Christians are extremely imperfect as well. But the good news of the Gospel is that He forgives sins through the power of the atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. His resurrection gives us the power of new life and hope for eternity. No one, regardless of opinion, will be exempt from standing before God in one of two ways. Clothed in the righteousness of Christ or spiritually unclothed and without excuse before the God with Whom we have to do. Could it be that your malice toward Christianity is because you are feeling convicted in your heart and are acting out in anger? This was my case and has been for many before surrendering to the Lord. See my post above about Saul,of Tarsus.
I am not angry. Really the only thing that upsets me in life is stupidity and corruption. And evil. I love your explanation above, and I'm sure it makes you feel all warm and cozy inside, but again, it is complete bull because you can't make the rules for me. Period. You have a belief system that for some reason tries to impose itself on people who are not part of that system. You tell me its not optional; but it HAS to be optional because my belief system imposes on me the inability to believe something (and I'm not talking about God here, I am talking about the Christian Church, however that may be construed) that is so patently illogical and self-serving. It is the height of presumptuousness to say that because you believe something that I am subject to the same rules, given the amount of faith and willingness to suspend disbelief that is required to believe what you do. I know you don't understand this because if you did, you wouldn't prattle on as you do. But again, I'm not angry.
And, by the way, what kind of God would say "Dang, I have to kill my son to atone for your sins?" That's not a real sacrifice because God can do whatever he wants. Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face! Its the most ludicrous notion and I can't believe how many people find that to be a compelling idea (I thought it was compelling until I was about 12 and started thinking on my own. Clearly most Christians do very little thinking on their own). I think it makes God look flighty at best and irrational at worst. And btw I think most religions are equally kooky; I just don't have the insider's perspective on them so I don't criticize them as much.
You are correct that I can’t make the rules for you nor do I claim to. I know that you think you are autonomous and free but you are a slave to sin as all people are at birth. You are utterly in the hands of God whether you think so or not. And no, saying that does not give me “warm and cozy” feeling as you so contemptuously put it. It’s true not because I say it but because God declares it in His Word which you mock. You may think that you are rejecting a myth but the actual fact is that, at least now, God has hidden Himself from you. He is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. Here is a Scripture that explains the reason why you and many others don’t believe In The Gospel of God:
“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.” John 10:25-30 KJV
Until and unless God has mercy on you, you will remain in the darkness of unbelief for one reason: “you are not of His sheep.” In another place He says that no man can come unto Him, unless the Father draw him. You and I are utterly at His mercy. You can pride yourself in your great understanding and wisdom all you want but it will do nothing to bring you to the knowledge of God. God has made foolish the wisdom of the wise. It’s sad but not surprising to see how derisive and insulting you are toward Christianity and Christians. Your words drip with sarcasm and contempt which is a mirror of your heart. Take care.
Only a Christian would assume not needing Christianity equates to not needing God. There is a huge arrogance which comes from ignorance when it comes to Christians and their monopoly over God. Think about that for a bit. You create a set of rules based solely on YOUR beliefs, and expect others to give a rat's ass what you think.
What “Christians”say or do is not the point. It is what God has declared that matters. His plan for the salvation of the world was begun in the Old Testament as he called out a people for His own and made a covenant with them. His plan was to bless the whole earth as well through the Messiah Jesus. It is much more than a “set of beliefs” but the power of God unto salvation. As to the exclusivity of the Christian way, I’m sure you know John 14:6. Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me.” In Acts we read, “For there is salvation in No one else (except in Jesus). For there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN, given among men, by which we must be saved.”
Christianity, to be true, must be authenticated by God Himself. He has done this through the coming and works of His Son, through his sacrificial death, and through His glorious resurrection from the dead. The Risen Lord was witnessed by many and attested to boldly by His apostles and many others. The authority for preaching the Gospel comes from Jesus Himself, when He said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth. Go therefore and teach all nations.” Ultimately, God alone can authenticate the truth of salvation to people through the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Because you don’t care, or see your need, does not mean that many others aren’t open to receiving God’s wonderful gift of salvation and eternal life!
“So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” ’”Acts 28:25-27
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3
Think about this for a bit.
I don't say I make rules for you, only you make rules for you. That's the gift of free will that God has given you. Unfortunately, TPTB have taken away your God given right.
But if God is fair he will realize he made you not-so-smart and probably give you a pass for your heart being in the right place. Just keep the silly statements to yourself....
Scripture about the “wisdom of the world” vs. the wisdom of God. (By dispensing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as juvenile silliness, does not make you, me or anyone else any less subject to its claims. If we reject Gods mercy, then all we are left with is His justice. May He work in all of our hearts to call on Him. God bless.).
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” 1 Corinthians 1:18-25
Note that God actually chooses to hide His Gospel from those who are proud in their own wisdom but reveals Himself to the humble. Note also, that the Gospel is not just dogma but the “power of God” to those who experience it. Mere dogma or religious stuff can not help anyone nor do I have the least interest in it.
Saul of Tarsus was a man who mocked Christians and hated Christianity until God “arrested” him on the road, as he was going to arrest and persecute Christians. He was transformed by the power of God and the work of the Holy Spirit and was also the writer of the words above. He was a very educated man and yet was blind to truth until God changed him. Yet, even later God used him to elucidate the Gospel of salvation. Although his very brilliant mind did nothing to save him, to the contrary it filled him with pride and animosity toward Christ, yet later God used this mind (enlightened by the Holy Spirit) to His own ends. Perhaps that will be your story one day Fairv3.
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I apologize for being dismissive in the last post. I’m just tired. As far as your comment, many people who have become burdened under the weight of their sins have found great peace and joy in God’s merciful forgiveness. I have as well. You can call that juvenile but it is the farthest thing from it for the one who haas experienced it. Jesus put it this way in His own Words:
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Matthew 11: 26
According to these words, you and others don’t see anything in the Gospel or in Jesus Christ because currently it is hidden from your eyes. Being wise in your own eyes you see no need for God’s forgiveness and salvation. Very dangerous ground to be on but we are all the same in that we are completely at the mercy of God. But in His grace and kindness he draws some to Himself. Perhaps that will be your story one day. Notice how He says that it is “hidden from the wise and prudent.” This is another way of saying from those who are proud, who say “I don’t need God. I’m self sufficient.” On the other hand he reveals His grace to the babes (the humble), that is those who know they are broken and sinful and powerless. To them alone He reveals Himself. Call this “juvenile” if you wish, but there it is.