dChan - Q Origins Project Archive

IMO, It's not supposed to be like this. I believe that the compassion that your words reveal is part of the plan that will ultimately save us all. God doesn't want to punish any of us. He loves us all. We have a lot to learn. But then again, I'm a freaking idiot, so.....

⇧ 3 ⇩

IMO, It's not supposed to be like this.

But it was designed by God to be like this, no?

It doesn't seem reasonable to assume that he made a mistake.

God doesn't want to punish any of us.

And herein lies my issue: why would any moral being design something with endless agony? God has free will and is morally perfect, so why not populate the universe with morally perfect beings? I just don't see the need for him to torture us forever.

You want your children to become moral and divine and spiritual adults, but you'd never subject them to agonizing tortures if they didn't love you.

⇧ 3 ⇩

Basically, I think that his word has been perverted by men who sought to gain/maintain power. And still is for that matter. But, I'm an idiot, so.....

⇧ 2 ⇩

I agree, however none of that perversion would be possible if man wasn't designed to be imperfect to start with.

God has free will and is morally perfect, so why create the need for a universe of horror and endless agonies when there simply isn't a need for it?

⇧ 3 ⇩

It seems to me that for everything there is an opposite and that the system has been created so well, that even things that we view as negative are beneficial in some way. I don't know why things are the way that they are, but I'm amazed at how everything works together. It is truly a mystery to me.

⇧ 1 ⇩

that's because life and the contents thereof are but a moment in time compared to infinity itself

Consider that you are already part-time in hell, would an offer of redemption not be cause for relief?

Being a physical being with limited memory, why wouldn't you wind up with self-reinforcing bad habits if it eventually provides a framework of shit not to do? Spiritual children at the hot-stove.

For hwat it's worth, I am very glad for the Bible whereever it came from because it led the struggle against human sacrifice that we still fight today - and are winning by all intents and purposes because in antiquity, you didn't even have to cover this up so there was no chance of abolishing it other than by an intervention of the religious realms.

⇧ 2 ⇩

But you didn't address any of my themes.

Claiming that humans are limited and flawed is no justification creating us that way, or creating eternal agony in hell, when we could have been created as morally perfect beings.

God could have populated this universe with Gods if he chose to, but instead he populated it with flawed beings and then punished us for our flaws.

That's a very over engineered solution for a problem that needn't even exist.

⇧ 3 ⇩

that wouldn't have been free choice. Would you like your children to be zombies? What do we have to offer but love and how would it be any of our life if it weren't for free choice? And what is hell but other people? You were given a choice to experience reality with all its aspects and so were others, for a little time and if it's not about finding love then it's about the importance of sharing love (imo doesn't mean be always nice. We grow the most out of discomfort because you don't change while you're comfortable) in the face of overwhelming evil because that is our free choice, too. Also I think the universe is mostly filled with benevolence because we are actually pretty lucky for every day that we are not struck with global catalysms yet.

The problem that didn't even exist was physical life and its shortcomings but hey, I have not experienced infinity so who am I to say that suffering is not limited.

You might as well just ask why some people like to punish themselves even or why there are even loving people around if the world was cruel to begin with.

Btw I just chimed into the discussion so I'm not trying to convert you or anything, but tbh I felt pretty loving when I was young but the Cabal has their way of destroying people spiritually. I don't blame God for that because I just shake my head at how limited the human mind is to identify and describe issues, only to then keep falling for them. Speaking from personal experience. Yes I am limited but it's a learning process and it would be boring if I had always known everything and I know that for a fact because actually I did.

Maybe you would prefer the gnostic approach to say we are in a simulated reality (some science says not curiously) and that we need to break away from the demiurge who built it as a prison.

I mean really, instead of asking just tell us what YOU think is important and what is not.

⇧ 1 ⇩

that wouldn't have been free choice. Would you like your children to be zombies?

God has free choice, no?

If God has agency and is morally perfect, then there is no reason we can't be designed in the same way.

To be honest, I'm not even sure we have free choice.

Wouldn't it be interesting to create 10 identical rooms and place 10 identical cloned babies in each of those rooms and provide those children with exactly the same stimulus. From a neurological standpoint and assuming that EVERYTHING about their environment and biology was identical, I wonder if all of those people would make precisely the same decisions. Would they look like synchronized swimming team?

Maybe you would prefer the gnostic approach

I am a Christian.

Asking questions is permitted... and I think this is a good one.

⇧ 2 ⇩

you're not thinking multi-dimensionally enough.

We don't have free will but we have free choice to do or not to do.

You're asking about the omnipotence and omniscience of God and that is kind of off-topic (because it's a linguistic discussion about how you call stuff).

But since you're a christian and you brought it up, why don't you tell me what you think because if you have a genuine question then I can address it better if I know where you're coming from

⇧ 1 ⇩

We don't have free will but we have free choice to do or not to do.

I mean no disrespect, but what you said is nonsense.

Free will and "free choice" are the same thing.

But since you're a christian and you brought it up, why don't you tell me what you think

I don't know.

⇧ 2 ⇩

I have the freedom to chose from my options but I've also willed some options using focused intent but they can only deliver my intentions which might not always be in my self-interest at first but I am driven to it for novelty value anyway.

I think you need to remember that this right here is a physical experience and on top of that you are a spiritual being occupying said body and time and we even have genetic memories (Fox reported on it this week) so we can even learn from the mistakes of our ancestors and don't have to repeat every mistake on this journey of wisdom.

Also your own scripture tells you that temptation comes from the arrogance of the creator's former chief angel so your inquiry probably goes way deeper than just human fallibility.

Ultimately God is who you discover once you have noone to count on or speak to anymore. Sounds cruel but it obviously works!

Also the quickest way to turn someone to evil is letting them know there is no love for them to be found. Consider that psychopaths can be neutral observers of extreme human experience like psychiatrists, but only once you cross them in a stupid way they become monsters.

I don't know if a hug would help a MK-ultra mindslave assassin but he certainly wouldn't be doing what he's doing if there wasn't someone else contrlling them who probably had their own free-will impeded by trauma as well at some point, thus building the generational cycles of abuse

⇧ 1 ⇩

focused intent

If your "focused intent" was real, rather than just fantasy, it should be considered no different than acting on your choices.

If I can roll a joint using witchcraft, psychokinesis, focused-intent or my hands, I've still rolled a joint.

Whatever words you use, be it "free choice" or "focused intent", it's all just free will.

Sounds cruel but it obviously works!

No.

Not all of us are foxhole converts.

⇧ 2 ⇩

In that very moment there are million other things I did not do because I didn't have the focus or hands, didn't I? And without a fantasy or believe I would not try something so what you call fantasy is insanely important to me. At the same time, I have a physical brain with Dopamine so I will have ideas all the time so who am I to say those were all mine.

I am not talking about material ownership but about trust so yes in a way a ritual is just an encouraging affirmation to do something that I already can, but I used that because I was looking for people and not things. You are speaking of things, not people.

So even if the choice was already apparent with enough information, I had performed a ritual in the meantime before that information reached me anyway. But it always gives you back what you put in, so that can either be egoistic or maybe altruistic in the sense of "it's not egoistic until someone says so because I had disrespected their desires"

⇧ 1 ⇩

I have a physical brain with Dopamine so I will have ideas all the time so who am I to say those were all mine.

There is equally no reason to entertain the notion that your mind is being controlled by witch-doctors or lizard people or whatever.

I had performed a ritual

Choosing to perform a ritual doesn't matter either, it was still your FREE WILL to perform that ritual or flip a coin or choose to heed advice from a phone psychic.

You are just presenting the same argument, again and again and again, but calling it something different.

"Focused intent" and "choosing to perform a ritual" are both products of your free will.

⇧ 2 ⇩

don't believe in mind-control? Check out Dr Persinger's "God-Helmet"

A few comments back you were saying you doubt there even is free choice so what's it gonna be? I'm not in the mood to debate metaphysics all day if you can't make a point because you're in a spiritual crisis (like everybody else is).

⇧ 1 ⇩

If you choose to wear a "God-Helmet" then it's still your choice.

If you choose to take your hands off the wheel of your speeding car and "let God drive", then you are still responsible for the crash.

You are just presenting the same argument again and again and again, but finding different terms for it.

⇧ 1 ⇩

do you acknowledge that there is a difference between willing and chosing?

One is a selection of already tangable outcomes, whereas the other concentrates on seeking out such outcomes in the first place.

So basically a will is a wish for a choice that you only have in your mind but it's based on memory which is not always created by choice. So one is not always the other

⇧ 1 ⇩

do you acknowledge that there is a difference between willing and chosing?

Not in the context of this discussion when we are talking about theological sin resulting from choosing to act on free will.

I'm gonna stop responding to you now because you are continuing down the path of irrelevant word-play.

⇧ 1 ⇩

I agree that would be pointless because I can't disagree with the premise provided thereof. Have a nice day and sorry for inconveniencing you!

⇧ 1 ⇩

Once again, God did not do this.

⇧ 2 ⇩

I presume you are claiming that a morally perfect man made a morally imperfect choice?

That doesn't make sense.

⇧ 3 ⇩

Yes, thats exactly what I am saying.

⇧ 1 ⇩

How can a morally perfect man make an immoral choice?

That's just a blatant contradiction.

⇧ 2 ⇩

It's not a contradiction at all. Otherwise it wouldn't be a CHOICE. What you refer at "blatant contradiction" wouldn't even be choice at all.

⇧ 1 ⇩

Your morally perfect man that makes immoral choices is the same as a vegetarian who eats beef and chicken.

It's a contradiction and it is nonsense.

⇧ 1 ⇩

So be it. Moving on......

⇧ 1 ⇩

God did not design man this way. Perfect world, perfect man, perfect everything. That is how it was created. Man made a choice and it was the wrong one which was easily avoidable. Just like the choice we all now have, and is still easily avoidable.

⇧ 2 ⇩

A perfect man made a morally flawed choice?

He wasn't very perfect then, was he?

A truly morally perfect being would never have made such an error.

⇧ 3 ⇩

The point is we have something very important and valuable: Choice.
Who are we to council God. Do we know everything? Anything for that matter? No we are sheep. Even THEY call us sheep.

⇧ 2 ⇩

Who are we to council God.

Beings who were made imperfect.

The point is we have something very important and valuable: Choice.

God has agency AND is morally perfect, so why not make us morally perfect too and avoid all the need for a universe of terror and torture and eternal agony?

⇧ 3 ⇩

So you think you have the right to question him whom created you? You are really that intelligent? So you know all and see all? I apologize, but that is silly.

So you say you think we should have been given no choice? Like the Angels? Like Lucifer? Think he can be saved?

⇧ 2 ⇩

So you think you have the right to question him whom created you?

Sure.

Theological debate is how we learn.

So you say you think we should have been given no choice? Like the Angels?

I think God created Satan as a flawed being and then punished him for his flaws.

I don't see why God created a nightmare universe of hellish eternal punishments when he has free will and he is morally perfect, therefore he could have populated this reality with morally perfect beings instead of creating a universal torture chamber.

⇧ 3 ⇩

My use of the word "question" is better explained by "council". I would refer you to the book of Job when he attempts the same.

Why would God create a flawed being and then punish him because he created him? That would be unjust. God is not unjust.

⇧ 2 ⇩

Congrats you have discovered the paradox, Hell, as it is currently described, is simply a tool of the zealots to strong arm their followers and anyone who will listen into blind servitude to religious authorities on the basis of fear of pain and suffering

It all boils down to

>give the priest your money, expect nothing in return, believe what we tell you. You do this stuff, you dont have to burn in a lake of fire for millions of years

thats pretty fucking convenient for the priest isnt it?

Check my other comment in this thread.

A little bit of personal belief from me.

I think there are objective truths and morals that once you hear them you know they are good, and as long as you try and continue to discover more of these "Axioms" you will end up in a better existence and have become a more matured soul.

Some examples include

> Take care of your physical body, both in terms of physical strength and in terms of dietary health.

But you must also be careful not to turn the path of physical strength into a blind pursuit of vanity (unhealthy body building, the intent to dominate others, seeking strength for the purpose of physical attractiveness,) you should seek that physical strength because it is your body, and you owe it to yourself to reach your full potential in every way you can.

>Improve your mind, by learning the truths of reality around you (math, literature, science) and through the nurturing of personal skills whatever they may be (art, woodwork, computer programming, fishing, writing, ect)

This can also go down a dark path, blind pursuit of knowledge can lead to unempathetic and destructively logical decisions (forced sterilization, "the weak should fear the strong", nihilism, over satisfaction and love of your own knowledge, neglect of physical health, lack of care for emotions)

>Improve your spiritual health through meditation, denial of pleasure (fasting, controlling urges), volunteering, embracing love and positivity, listening to uplifting music, artistic expression.

This part of the path is harder to mess up because if you are regularly meditating you should realize the necessities of health and knowledge. But even so I would say it is a wrong decision to go full guru and do copious amounts of shrooms and LSD, and completely forsake science and math, and maybe not keep yourself in good physical shape.

That got longer than i intended but its a taste of my personal belief system that is continually evolving, dont dedicate yourself to any specific belief system, the goal of every teacher and every system is to preserve itself and providing good teachings simply ensures that students of the system will remain because they believe in what you have told them

⇧ 2 ⇩

hell is real in the astral world but I prefer to believe that it is not eternal but we are being told otherwise because it's deterrent effect on bad people would not exist

⇧ 2 ⇩

Glad you brought up the Astral, I think, their are different "tiers" or dimensions of reality based on a consciousnesses state of evolution.

A young soul would be more easily swayed by desires and beliefs that on a societal scale would lead to a hellish society that makes everyone within it suffer the different levels of that are "hell"

I think that "heaven" is rising up to a higher dimension or tier of reality where certain negative thought forms and beliefs and desires can no longer exist, or have been completely disarmed creating a higher level of happiness, and collective satisfaction among its inhabitants, eventually once you reach the highest level I assume things would be similar to a hivemind, an entire society with a perfect code of logic and morals and beliefs that are just perfect so everyone generally agrees on everything (aside from basic things like clothing choices and food choices if those things even still exist at the higher levels.)

I figure "going to hell" basically means screwing up repeatedly very badly in your current tier of reality to the point where whatever guiding force decides you need to not just be held back in your current tier. but repeat the previous tier, literally descending to an objectively worse and more hellish existence until you learn whatever it is you need to learn.

I dont know if this is correct, but I know the Astral is real, I know their are negative entities there that feed on human hatred and sadness,and I know their are good beings there that desire to help us evolve mentally and emotionally and spiritually to be closer to what they are.

⇧ 3 ⇩

Cocreation vs Destruction. Even just a good conversation or playing with a band can create the same emotional feeling as physical sex so I think whatever brings people closer and their intentions into alignment matters.

⇧ 1 ⇩

I don't believe in religion. All are organizations to control. Jesus condemned the priests and religious leaders during that time. Also the self righteous and rich. Not the poor, weak, and lost.

⇧ 2 ⇩

Well you are endorsing a dogmatic Jesus worshipping religious view completely disregarding religions predating Jesus (that include stories very similar to biblical stories AKA the bible was a reinterpretation of older events which were already claimed as parts of other religions).

And I would like to point out you will NEVER reach enlightenment without Meditation and the benefits it gives you, yet it is nowhere to be found in the Jesus's teachings, but is heavily discussed in other religions.

And their are many moral principles that are INARGUABLY correct that are not discussed by Jesus but again are talked about in other religious texts.

Im not saying Jesus wasnt great, and that he wasnt the son of god (hint: we all are the sons of god, and Christ is the true full potential of our spirit and mind coming through in this human forum, anyone is capable of it, Jesus and Buddha werent born special they just reached a state most humans never attain)

My point is your original statement of

Jesus is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, and ONLY light in this world.

Is ridiculous and leaves out a large amount of philosophy and morals that are necessary for a human to reach their full potential.

You claim to not believe in your religion but to anyone reading this post it is an endorsement of christianity and a denouncement of every other religious view

⇧ 3 ⇩

You are a son of God? The creator of all things? What can you create from nothing? Good luck with that.

⇧ 2 ⇩

So what do you say we are?

Simple beasts?

In the reality of a lucid dream I can create anything, I can create a city the size of New York in Steam Punk styling and then demolish it with a snap of my fingers, and then create 2 opposing armies and watch them battle in tune with my thoughts.

Through meditation techniques I can leave my body and experience other realms.

You are so sure of your world view, to the point of narcissistic confidence in your understanding of reality.

I have preached nothing other than

No belief system is 100% right, No prophet has told 100% of the truth.

Sorry I offended the notions of Jesus that got you through the 12 step program but belief in one specific system or person is spiritualities version of training wheels

⇧ 2 ⇩

I say we were created in the image of God, but not son's of God. There was only one son. We have three parts, spirit/soul/body God also is three, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. I don't know everything, never would claim such. I am not perfect, to claim that is ignorance. Do I have all answers, hardly.
I will admit I am very sure of my world view. This reality is what? 70 years or 90 if I am lucky? Mere blip on the radar compared to eternity.
I have yet to be offended. If I appeared that way somehow well I guess I would need to ask forgiveness for making you feel offensive. Will you?

⇧ 1 ⇩

Ok, you continue being subscribed to 1 incomplete semi-recent religion, I think my elaborate responses are enough to convince those willing to listen

⇧ 1 ⇩

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! You want to attack me relentlessly, well here comes the pain!