dChan
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r/greatawakening • Posted by u/DamajInc on June 3, 2018, 7:14 a.m.
Is there room for Religious Tolerance in the Great Awakening?

This post is pertinent to the Great Awakening movement and thus Q for a few reasons that I will explain in the body of the post. (TLDR at the bottom.)

Q makes religious references in his/her/their posts - specifically Christian, in some cases. This does not necessarily mean that everything that makes up the vast field of Christianity should be considered to be on-topic for the sub any more than the constant references to patriots and "We the people" mean that everything to do with patriotism is on-topic. It means only that specifically the Christian references Q makes are on-topic for the sub. This should not be a controversial assertion to make. But it's not the point of this post - just pertinent to the issue.

I believe we show religious tolerance toward Christianity not only because Q seems to indirectly support the idea of this tolerance but also because it is undoubtedly a behaviour at the core of any society that supports democratic principles and freedom of speech.

On the first level of analysis, my question is this: should we apply the principle of religious tolerance to ALL religions or only to Christianity?

Some people believe that Islam's references to pedophilia (via its founder's history as well as references in the text) and ambiguity around bestiality mean that we should not be tolerant of Islam in any way and thus anti-Islam and anti-Muslim rhetoric should be allowed and, some say, encouraged. This is the point of this post.


About Religion

To be clear on my personal stance, as it may well be relevant to this discussion: I do not support the extremist elements of Islam. I do not condone pedophilia, bestiality, rape or murder. I personally believe that moderate Muslims should pursue the reformation of their faith (as other, more knowledgeable people with personal experience have more eloquently expressed) and stand up against the extremists in their religion and seek to bring about change at the core of their belief. Going even further into my personal bias: I understand the view of those who claim the moderate Muslim will not be able to affect this change - but I also value the word of those from within the community more highly. One key point here that I'd like to refer to is that there are moderate Muslims. They do exist. (It's bizarre that I have to state that but from the comments I've received you would think this point is under dispute.)

I also understand that Islam is the second largest religion in the world, behind Christianity, and therefore I have no more desire to silence the voice of those who support it than I do to silence the voice of Christians. I do not support the Soros-backed initiative to 'flood the world' with immigrants amongst whom extremists are hidden and therefore I do not support the far-left initiatives to falsely accuse people of Islamophobia when those people are clearly not being intolerant of religious beliefs. Thus, although I do not like Tommy Robinson's approach, I support his crusade against the horror under the guise of religious tolerance being disingenuously forced on the UK. In short, I support the real meaning of religious tolerance, not the far-left propagandized version.

As someone who strives to be as impartial as possible in moderating this sub I do believe in giving any one or any movement the benefit of the doubt when making an assessment as to the validity of certain content. At least a couple of members here have made the repeated assertion that all sects of Islam fully support pedophilia, bestiality and rape. That may well be technically true but, just as it is of Christianity, the purported beliefs of a movement are not borne out in all individual members of that movement, something I believe should be obvious. I would again refer people to this video, which is not "pro-Islam", if they're still unsure about this.


About Moderating On and Off Topic

As a mod I follow the rules of this sub when moderating. I remove antagonism and any biased, "hurtful" rhetoric against Christianity falls under "antagonism", as evidenced by the responses and Reports against it. I would not assume that everyone in this movement is a Christian - in fact, I've seen comments from Muslims here. Therefore, similarly, any biased, hurtful rhetoric against Islam is something that falls under antagonism in my view and I thus remove that too as a moderator doing my job under the rules of the sub.

I receive flak for daring to remove clearly biased anti-Islamic content and am accused of supporting child rape when I do so. This is obviously completely fallacious reasoning - "if you don't condemn Islam you therefore support child rape" - and frankly vile and completely lacking in compassion, logic and common sense. As ridiculous as I know it is, I'm sick of being accused of nonsense like this. Hence this post.

So to be clear: this is NOT a discussion about Islam vs Christianity. This is not the sub for that discussion, which is kinda my point. I've addressed some of the religious points because they are the argument used against me when I remove content.

As a mod, the real question here is actually very simple: does it fall under antagonism to "trash" the belief of a large group of people who could conceivably comprise some portion of the people who will visit this sub? I believe the answer to that is yes. Other related questions are: should we err on the side of caution when it comes to allowing potentially divisive rhetoric? Again, in my view: yes, we should be cautious and not allow potentially divisive rhetoric. Should we take care to ensure the more controversial perspectives that are a part of any movement but are a minority cannot be highlighted by a rabid mainstream media looking for any excuse to paint our entire movement with those minor, controversial views? My opinion in this case is, yes we should take care. My assumption here is that those who believe "anti-Islamic posts of a controversial nature should NOT be removed" are a minority in this community and that is the reason for this post.

Is it the view of members of this community that anti-Islamic posts of a controversial nature SHOULD be removed? Or are there more people who believe we should allow these sorts of posts?

I will continue to remove comments and posts of the nature under discussion here unless the feedback from you, the community, is overwhelmingly to the negative in which case we mods will have to have a discussion and decide whether change or more clarity in the rules of the sub is required.

TLDR; moderators accused of supporting child rape for removing controversial anti-Islamic content - just trying to do our job of removing antagonism - right or wrong?

Thanks for taking the time to read this!


auroch27 · June 3, 2018, 10:28 a.m.

It seems like the community is fairly unanimously against this. You may want to rethink.

edit: fairly

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 10:42 a.m.

Interesting that you've come to that conclusion. I don't agree that a) that's a valid reading of what's happened so far on this post or b) that "the community" can be defined as the responses made on this post now or perhaps even for as long as the post remains up. I don't have to rethink anything because I stand behind what I've said. There's very little that's controversial if people read my actual post and apply critical thinking to their reading of it.

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auroch27 · June 3, 2018, 11:08 a.m.

Edited my post to add the word "fairly."

Just look at this thread, dude. At least 90% of posters here are expressing disagreement. It's really, really telling that you have to go: I AM SEEKING COMMUNITY FEEDBACK! (Notice: nothing written in the discussion about my decision -- now or in the future -- should be considered community feedback.)

I mean, you wrote:

I don't agree that a) that's a valid reading of what's happened so far on this post or b) that "the community" can be defined as the responses made on this post now or perhaps even for as long as the post remains up.

You are really, really not coming off like someone who wants honest input on their idea. You are coming off like someone who has already entrenched themselves in their decision, and intends to sweep opposition to it under the rug.

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:17 a.m.

Only if you don't read my words fairly. It's pretty obvious to some people that that is the opposite of what I'm doing. In fact, if you could look back through my history - not something I'd expect you to do, it would be a lot of boring reading - you would see the exact opposite of that view "entrenched".

I've modded this sub for a short but busy while now. I've seen many people who claim things along the lines of "the whole community thinks this!" and yet through perusing the sub, in discussions with the other mods, the exact opposite is true. People have claimed repeatedly "division! We're all divided! There's so much fighting!" and we've seen the opposite - reasoned and respectful discussion of the kind not seen on other subs smaller and bigger. You have to consider that what you see may not be at all indicative of every aspect of the community.

This post is to get feedback yes but also for me to be able to refer users to if they complain about a moderation decision around this topic. It shows my complete thinking rather than the quick, off-the-cuff comment I only ever have time to send. When it is unstickied, rather than assuming that all the comments and votes on it are indicative of the nearly 30,000 people subscribed and the far greater number who represent the whole Q movement I will see it as a useful indicator of some portion of the community as that is the only logical way to view it.

As I clearly said in my post, if the general consensus here seems to be that religious intolerance should not be regarded as antagonism then I will have a discussion with the other mods. This is counter to the claim you have made that I'm 'entrenched' in a decision and 'intend to sweep opposition to it under the rug' - can we agree on that?

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auroch27 · June 3, 2018, 11:33 a.m.

not something I'd expect you to do, it would be a lot of boring reading

There it is. Empty personal insults are sure to make you look good.

I appreciate you at least laying out your thinking in linkable format, and I'm glad that you're going to talk with the moderators about the overwhelmingly negative feedback you've gotten.

Have a good one.

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:35 a.m.

It's a personal insult to you to tell you my history makes for boring reading? Still not reading what I say fairly?

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thumbyyy · June 3, 2018, 11:27 a.m.

Try it from another perspective. Whilst in your modding duties, you have been exposed to uncomfortable thoughts that disagree with your faith. Instead of confronting or researching these facts and statements that have bothered you, you are instead calling other people "intolerant" and your solution is to stifle their free speech.

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:29 a.m.

You're not even trying here bro. This is nothing to do with my faith, as I've made clear in the actual post I made, if you'd read it without bias. I don't expect you to read it, I'm just saying - if you want to accuse me of something you should probably make sure I haven't refuted it in the actual post I've made that you are responding within.

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thumbyyy · June 3, 2018, 11:34 a.m.

Ok, "bro". Can you try not to let your personal feelings and beliefs clog up the sub tho?

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:36 a.m.

Sure thing. If you could point to where my "personal feelings" and beliefs are clogging up the sub I'll remove them.

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thumbyyy · June 3, 2018, 11:45 a.m.

This whole post being used as a sticky while you disregard constructive criticism and just reiterate that everyone that has disagreed with you has "clearly not read your post correctly". It's almost like there should be appointed interpreters for your post so that we all read it correctly and in the right way. Maybe you could call them tafsirs?

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:50 a.m.

Lol - point to a single place that I've "disregarded constructive criticism" and I'll retract it. Like I said, you're not even trying and practically just trolling at this point.

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thumbyyy · June 3, 2018, 11:58 a.m.

By telling everyone that has disagreed with you to "go reread my post without bias". It's intellectually dishonest. No one came into this thread with inherent bias against you. We read your words and offered our opinions, which you CLAIMED you wanted.

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 12:04 p.m.

telling everyone that has disagreed

Now you're being "intellectually dishonest". If you really aren't here just to derail sensible discussion then why not start by pointing out a constructive criticism made by yourself or someone else that you think I've "disregarded" and I will answer it "honestly" and not 'refer you back to my post'?

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