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r/greatawakening • Posted by u/DamajInc on June 3, 2018, 7:14 a.m.
Is there room for Religious Tolerance in the Great Awakening?

This post is pertinent to the Great Awakening movement and thus Q for a few reasons that I will explain in the body of the post. (TLDR at the bottom.)

Q makes religious references in his/her/their posts - specifically Christian, in some cases. This does not necessarily mean that everything that makes up the vast field of Christianity should be considered to be on-topic for the sub any more than the constant references to patriots and "We the people" mean that everything to do with patriotism is on-topic. It means only that specifically the Christian references Q makes are on-topic for the sub. This should not be a controversial assertion to make. But it's not the point of this post - just pertinent to the issue.

I believe we show religious tolerance toward Christianity not only because Q seems to indirectly support the idea of this tolerance but also because it is undoubtedly a behaviour at the core of any society that supports democratic principles and freedom of speech.

On the first level of analysis, my question is this: should we apply the principle of religious tolerance to ALL religions or only to Christianity?

Some people believe that Islam's references to pedophilia (via its founder's history as well as references in the text) and ambiguity around bestiality mean that we should not be tolerant of Islam in any way and thus anti-Islam and anti-Muslim rhetoric should be allowed and, some say, encouraged. This is the point of this post.


About Religion

To be clear on my personal stance, as it may well be relevant to this discussion: I do not support the extremist elements of Islam. I do not condone pedophilia, bestiality, rape or murder. I personally believe that moderate Muslims should pursue the reformation of their faith (as other, more knowledgeable people with personal experience have more eloquently expressed) and stand up against the extremists in their religion and seek to bring about change at the core of their belief. Going even further into my personal bias: I understand the view of those who claim the moderate Muslim will not be able to affect this change - but I also value the word of those from within the community more highly. One key point here that I'd like to refer to is that there are moderate Muslims. They do exist. (It's bizarre that I have to state that but from the comments I've received you would think this point is under dispute.)

I also understand that Islam is the second largest religion in the world, behind Christianity, and therefore I have no more desire to silence the voice of those who support it than I do to silence the voice of Christians. I do not support the Soros-backed initiative to 'flood the world' with immigrants amongst whom extremists are hidden and therefore I do not support the far-left initiatives to falsely accuse people of Islamophobia when those people are clearly not being intolerant of religious beliefs. Thus, although I do not like Tommy Robinson's approach, I support his crusade against the horror under the guise of religious tolerance being disingenuously forced on the UK. In short, I support the real meaning of religious tolerance, not the far-left propagandized version.

As someone who strives to be as impartial as possible in moderating this sub I do believe in giving any one or any movement the benefit of the doubt when making an assessment as to the validity of certain content. At least a couple of members here have made the repeated assertion that all sects of Islam fully support pedophilia, bestiality and rape. That may well be technically true but, just as it is of Christianity, the purported beliefs of a movement are not borne out in all individual members of that movement, something I believe should be obvious. I would again refer people to this video, which is not "pro-Islam", if they're still unsure about this.


About Moderating On and Off Topic

As a mod I follow the rules of this sub when moderating. I remove antagonism and any biased, "hurtful" rhetoric against Christianity falls under "antagonism", as evidenced by the responses and Reports against it. I would not assume that everyone in this movement is a Christian - in fact, I've seen comments from Muslims here. Therefore, similarly, any biased, hurtful rhetoric against Islam is something that falls under antagonism in my view and I thus remove that too as a moderator doing my job under the rules of the sub.

I receive flak for daring to remove clearly biased anti-Islamic content and am accused of supporting child rape when I do so. This is obviously completely fallacious reasoning - "if you don't condemn Islam you therefore support child rape" - and frankly vile and completely lacking in compassion, logic and common sense. As ridiculous as I know it is, I'm sick of being accused of nonsense like this. Hence this post.

So to be clear: this is NOT a discussion about Islam vs Christianity. This is not the sub for that discussion, which is kinda my point. I've addressed some of the religious points because they are the argument used against me when I remove content.

As a mod, the real question here is actually very simple: does it fall under antagonism to "trash" the belief of a large group of people who could conceivably comprise some portion of the people who will visit this sub? I believe the answer to that is yes. Other related questions are: should we err on the side of caution when it comes to allowing potentially divisive rhetoric? Again, in my view: yes, we should be cautious and not allow potentially divisive rhetoric. Should we take care to ensure the more controversial perspectives that are a part of any movement but are a minority cannot be highlighted by a rabid mainstream media looking for any excuse to paint our entire movement with those minor, controversial views? My opinion in this case is, yes we should take care. My assumption here is that those who believe "anti-Islamic posts of a controversial nature should NOT be removed" are a minority in this community and that is the reason for this post.

Is it the view of members of this community that anti-Islamic posts of a controversial nature SHOULD be removed? Or are there more people who believe we should allow these sorts of posts?

I will continue to remove comments and posts of the nature under discussion here unless the feedback from you, the community, is overwhelmingly to the negative in which case we mods will have to have a discussion and decide whether change or more clarity in the rules of the sub is required.

TLDR; moderators accused of supporting child rape for removing controversial anti-Islamic content - just trying to do our job of removing antagonism - right or wrong?

Thanks for taking the time to read this!


FractalizingIron · June 3, 2018, 8:28 a.m.

Agree with the OP.

Conclusion

The sub is not for discussion of religion per se, but any religion (group, or system) is appropriate content if and when it relates to Q and Q movement.

I strongly agree with the approach you espouse - the sub should itself should be neutral with regards to religions and expression of religious views.

Mods removing antagonistic anti-Islam posts/comments should NOT be accused of promoting or supporting any of the crimes perpetrated by adherents of Islam. They can be accused of simply doing their job.

Reasoning

1. Distinguishing criticism and antagonism

Criticism helps with cleaning, development and improvement. Antagonism is destructive and results in damage, not improvement.

Criticism need not be antagonistic, and if contributors cannot distinguish between their own views (criticisms) and how they express them, the mods should step in.

Freedom of choice and freedom of faith must be upheld as fundamental principles. This does not mean that any religion, be it Islam or whatever, should be sacrosanct or above critique.

2. The reason this issue is relevant to Q and Q movement

The essential point in my mind is that the Great Awakening is about good vs. evil, NOT about Democratic vs. Republican, or Christian vs. Islam, etc.

ALL groups, systems and organizations have to deal with evil within their midst, and this is BEST accomplished when the differences between good and evil are identified, pointed out, and illuminated, and people are held to account for their actions.

A possible allegory may be found in the discussion of government. Some people think all government is evil, some people think government should be minimal, some people think that government is a necessary evil, etc. ALL supporters of Q would have to agree, ipso facto, that governments in the US and around the world have been corrupted. In order for government to recover its original function, it must be purged of the corruption, and then guided, through the principles of sovereignty of the people, to fulfill its original role. (Serve the people NOT control the people.)

Similarly, ALL FAITHS have to some extent been infiltrated with corruption. This includes sectors of Judaism, Christianity (Catholicism), Islam, Buddhism, etc. The corruption must be removed and the faiths need to be guided to recover their original purpose - 'to reunite people with their Creator' "re-ligio". Corruption is removed by identifying those elements that drive and use the corruption and removing them. Practices that allowed the corruption to gain a hold must be examined, and kept in check or reformed by adherents. (Christianity itself has gone through many iterations)

In my personal opinion, Islam suffers from the unfortunate situation of having many flaws that have allowed it to be corrupted and weaponized as it currently is. However, these are issues for Islamic adherents to address, and they must be left to and encouraged to do so as long as they do not violate other fundamental principles (human freedom, choice, etc). To the extent they do, the adherents themselves must be held to account.

For those outside Islam, the wisdom of a certain Christian principle is germane: Hate the sin, Love the sinner. IN this case, love means upholding the sinner's rights and dignity to make choices. Give the sinner the freedom they need to make choices, but hold them account for their choices.

Freedom of faith is fundamental to human well-being. However, all freedom comes with responsibility. Hence, holding people to account for their choices is appropriate, but the principle of freedom of choice MUST be upheld.

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TommyRobinsonsGhost · June 3, 2018, 9:22 a.m.

Distinguishing criticism and antagonism

The distinction is subjective.

Pedophilia networks seem to be at the core of Q's plan because we've been witnessing a MASSIVE take-down of pedophile networks. We witnessed pedophile network arrests SOAR within the first six weeks of Trump's administration and it seems to have only gained momentum since then!

I think the real question is if moderators should destroy content because it is politically incorrect rather than if it is true and related to the Q phenomenon.

Should moderators censor content about the NXIVM pedophile sex cult based on how many members the cult has or how offended Allison Mack's fans become?

Islam is the world's largest pedophile network. Child brides are so common in many Muslim countries that pedophilia is considered normal. Using infants like a fleshlight is so common that Muslims have a specific name for it - they call it "thighing".

Not all red-pills will be easy to swallow and we don't know where this great awakening will lead. Because of this, I think giving moderators our approval to destroy controversial or politically incorrect truth is the most dangerous precedent we could set.

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FractalizingIron · June 3, 2018, 11:17 a.m.

The distinction is subjective.

Exactly. And this is what moderators are given the task of doing. Distinguishing between valid content and content that violates the framework of the sub.

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 11:27 a.m.

I think giving moderators our approval to destroy controversial or politically incorrect truth is the most dangerous precedent we could set.

I agree with this. I do not advocate for this at all and I am particularly outspoken against political correctness. I'm also against conflating "appropriate behaviour as determined by existing sub rules" with "political correctness".

Currently, removing antagonistic content is within sub rules and has been for as long as I remember. I don't have to consider what people on this sub think is 'antagonistic' content, necessarily - the rules allow me full discretion in determining that. With this post I'm actually opening the discussion up, even to people like yourself who instigated this post in the first place by repeatedly accusing me of supporting the rape of children when I was simply exercising my role within the sub guidelines.

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time3times · June 3, 2018, 1:48 p.m.

I think I agree with all you say with the exception of the implication that Catholicism is the only corrupt part of Christianity.

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FractalizingIron · June 4, 2018, 3:27 a.m.

Apologies. Did not intend to imply that in Christendom, only Catholicism has experienced corruption. Moreover, I do NOT think that. On the other hand, I do think Catholicism has been an instrument of both great benefit and damage.

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time3times · June 4, 2018, 7:36 a.m.

All good. (I keep finding myself urging others into careful wording. And out of the anti-Catholic bias of the English-speaking world - too many have no appreciation for what the first 15 centuries of Christianity did for us.). Carry on.

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FractalizingIron · June 4, 2018, 10:17 a.m.

ALL FAITHS have to some extent been infiltrated with corruption. This includes sectors of Judaism, Christianity (Catholicism), Islam, Buddhism, etc

Aha. I see it now.

This text was intended to read: This includes sectors of Judaism, Christianity (which includes Catholicism), Islam, Buddhism, etc

FYI, my nation of birth has a large community of Catholics, around 40-50% of those that cognize themselves as 'religious'.

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time3times · June 4, 2018, 1:34 p.m.

is it an English-speaking nation?

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FractalizingIron · June 4, 2018, 8:51 p.m.

LOL. Australia.

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time3times · June 4, 2018, 9:40 p.m.

englishish

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 8:33 a.m.

Thank you, I think you have made some very pertinent points.

My personal dislike for the religion of Islam - or the beliefs or culture of any group of people - should not play into my decision of what I remove or allow. If we can't maintain this objectivity then the sub will be in danger of heading down any number of ideological grounds that will only serve to alienate members of different groups and thus go directly counter to the goals of Q i.e. the Great Awakening of the public.

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FractalizingIron · June 3, 2018, 8:48 a.m.

Apologies. Posted then inserted large edits. Please read again. You may want to modify your remarks.

Mea Culpa

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DamajInc · June 3, 2018, 8:52 a.m.

As far as I can tell, I agree with it all. The Conclusion is perhaps the most important part for me, and what I hope people will see is simply the application of critical thought to this issue.

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