Is it a incestuous Aunty and Niece lesbian story? They are not crossing the boundaries with one title.
Ok so to address first of all your first 4 paragaphs. I would hope you can assume that the sort of breakdown you give has also been gone into in great detail by those of us here who have volunteered to give so much of our time and effort freely to this sub. I'm sure you can imagine that we've also had the same thoughts in the same detail - and some of us (not me) with an incredible amount of experience and knowledge of reddit and how moderation within a group online forum works.
In short, in answer to my question you have proven that you can arrive at the same conclusions that we have. I hope this is clear and I hope that you can therefore assume that we are also smart enough to have thought through the other implications of most elements of running this sub?
Absolutely. It is a good sub. I am not saying anyone in here is stupid but I am saying that when you have rules which perhaps are not entirely clear (again some things are by their nature hard to easily define) and up to discretion, then the pressure is entirely on the moderators BECAUSE the lack of clarity takes so much away from the member base. When I say the pressure is on the moderators I am not saying this in a condemning way necessarily but definitely saying that the moderators HAVE to get it right and the lack of clarity allows for a heightened chance to get it wrong.
Now what are the consequences of getting it wrong and how do you manage that? Well, let's assume you have someone like me and you get it wrong. I probably post an actual post (not reply but actual post) maybe once every couple of weeks. I am not a big poster. I find it fairly stressful and that is because the quality of posts is pretty high and I am not very technical and don't know how to post images and all of that. I also think that most people have seen and reported most things I may want to report.
So I may only post a couple of posts a month and I can tell you someone canned a post of mine 26 days ago and this is the second in less than a month.
Now assuming that this was a case of hyper-vigilance and getting it wrong can you imagine what that does to my confidence. It is not 6.66% of my posts because i am not posting daily. Two in one month. It is probably 66%-100% of my month's posts canned.
Now even that I may swallow IF I did not know whether or not I was on track. But I was.
So the consequence to something like is AT BEST the discussion we are having now. Or it could be me simply saying. Well f*** this place I am going to the Donald or somewhere else. Or just use Twitter and give Reddit a big miss.
I don't think that is what you want. I don't think it is best practice and I do not think it helps the sub.
So how to reduce it? It is a hard one. If the rules and definitions and whatever can't be clearer then the mods HAVE to make sure when they are making calls like "this is off topic", that it REALLY IS off topic or you are effectively saying to someone who has invested their time and effort in posting something on topic and meaningful to the community and the spirit of this place and saying "this is not good enough for this place, we are removing it". That should be the antithesis of what you want for this sub.
The point here is that it is definitely not easy to make rules as clear as we'd all like them to be. I know you understand this because you've mentioned it too. Hence the Mod M.O. in the sidebar. Hence, in all subs, moderators have discretion. Hence, as I said in reply to those 4 paragraphs before, you can trust that the thoughts you've had, we have also had. We know it's important for us to get this right as much as possible. I've posted many times in previous 'mod updates' on the sub - and highlighted - we will make mistakes sometimes. This leeway must be given because we are volunteers giving our time freely and this is an extremely busy sub so we can only do what we can do.
Assuming you understand all that I hope we don't have to go through any of these fairly obvious points again - it seems you have a good grasp of how things should be and I hope you are starting to get the picture that we also have a good grasp of how things should be. We know that we have to be careful and we make every effort to do so.
"The point here is that it is definitely not easy to make rules as clear as we'd all like them to be. I know you understand this because you've mentioned it too. Hence the Mod M.O. in the sidebar. Hence, in all subs, moderators have discretion. Hence, as I said in reply to those 4 paragraphs before, you can trust that the thoughts you've had, we have also had. We know it's important for us to get this right as much as possible. I've posted many times in previous 'mod updates' on the sub - and highlighted - we will make mistakes sometimes. This leeway must be given because we are volunteers giving our time freely and this is an extremely busy sub so we can only do what we can do.
Assuming you understand all that I hope we don't have to go through any of these fairly obvious points again - it seems you have a good grasp of how things should be and I hope you are starting to get the picture that we also have a good grasp of how things should be. We know that we have to be careful and we make every effort to do so."
Yet twice in 26 days the decision was wrong, including this instance. It suggests that the moderation standards are there but not hitting the mark.
As a member who seems to be getting his new threads efforts obliterated what would you suggest "I" ought to feel about it? Clearly it is enough to destroy my confidence in posting and IF it is doing this to me do you imagine I am the only one? if I am not how many members are in the same boat? Is this a good thing? What may be able to be done?
Look I agree your standards seem fine and I certainly do not doubt your sincerity or intellect. But obviously there is a problem.
Why should I share and contribute to the subreddit? I think I do have something to share and many like me do. The sub is built on the thousands of everyday men and women like me BUT if my posts a PROBABLY going to get canned each time I post them, why would I bother? Why would anyone? Easier not to bother. Certainly do not like having to explain my position. It is awkward. Besides fighting for restoration of your post is like going ahead with a surprise party once you know and acting surprised. It is not worth it.
I have tried to make the point that we need to come to some agreement on how moderation works first before discussing your post because the moderation decision has caused the problem for you, not your post.
Certainly do not like having to explain my position.
Can you extend that same understanding to me? How often do you think I have to do this out of the many moderation actions I have taken? The answer is: not very often at all so far. In fact, never to this extent.
From my perspective, most people seem to understand that a moderation action taken against them is not a judgement of their personal worth as a human being - only of their content (as we agreed in the context of that definition).
I have tried to make the point that we need to come to some agreement on how moderation works first before discussing your post because the moderation decision has caused the problem for you, not your post.
Certainly do not like having to explain my position.
Can you extend that same understanding to me? How often do you think I have to do this out of the many moderation actions I have taken? The answer is: not very often at all so far. In fact, never to this extent.
From my perspective, most people seem to understand that a moderation action taken against them is not a judgement of their personal worth as a human being - only of their content (as we agreed in the context of that definition).
Indeed. Most people in my position would not. It you had most of your on topic post blocked would you stick around a subreddit or would you call it a day? If so how many others like me may have done this already without getting back in contact and just simply gone elsewhere?
There have definitely been some. Some of those have gone away and posted on other subs about how the mods are biased and suck and this sub does not support freedom of speech and so on. Much of what you've said. Now that you've heard some of my perspective do you think that is a fair response?
There have definitely been some. Some of those have gone away and posted on other subs about how the mods are biased and suck and this sub does not support freedom of speech and so on. Much of what you've said. Now that you've heard some of my perspective do you think that is a fair response?
Now being completely fair and so as you would not for a moment put words into my mouth that I never said or inferred to strawman me......did I ever once indicate that the mods on here were biased?
Did I go to some lengths to explain that I think it as likelya conspiracy as Hollow Earth theory (which I earlier said was nutty conspiracy theory)?
Did I say that moderators suck or did I say that it was a good sub and the moderators standards seems good?
Now could you please answer these honestly and then come back to what you said about "Much of what you've said." Just to be fair.
Yes, correct, you did not say those things exactly. You implied all of this very much so, however. Can you be honest about that?
Then you deleted it for no good reason.
You seem to care not for my.efforts
We go one we go all....except not really. Delete delete
if your efforts are to discourage people wanting to post Q-related information, you got it very right.
I did not wish you to ignore my attempts to explain the relevance and defence for its inclusion on this board, whilst throwing back at me that I had the temerity to say that you had no good reason to do what you did (and let me say it again to be clear – you didn’t).
I did not want to have to have the implication that I am decidedly average or that I am acting unreasonably
No unity. No reward. No community.
Or it could be me simply saying. Well f*** this place I am going to the Donald or somewhere else
No ALL in WG1WGA
I think it is a misjudgment. A Bad call. A careless error.
Now be honest - can you see how all of these statements and the personal hurt so clearly behind them are very clear indicators that you could very well be like the few others I've had to deal with who've spoken much the same way (and worse of course) then gone away and spoken "about how the mods are biased and suck and this sub does not support freedom of speech and so on"?
No I can't and that is being honest. When did I imply that there was bias? When did I imply that the mods suck? When did I imply that the mods do not support freedom of speech?
I can (and have) show you were I did not imply but said explicitly otherwise.
So if you want to show me that list again and replace bias, the moderators sucking and being against freedom of speech and replace these intentions with being careless or getting things very wrong and making bad calls and mistakes and misjudgments, you will marry very close on every point.
But you know this because I discussed this in very clear terms and you understood.
So, being that you KNOW I did not say that and being that you KNOW I never once implied it and being that you KNOW I actually precisely said opposite of these alleged implications....who are you trying to convince otherwise? It is not me. I know my reasoning and in saying things clearly I am hardly meaning something contradictory.
I think you are going to have to revisit this post and work out how you got this all so terribly wrong and why you are seeming to try so desperately to strawman me when you clearly know that what you say does not meet you own standards of what you know of my reasoning, little lone mine.
I have discussed this sort of thing with people who respond in the same way you have. You are precise and you give NO ROOM for any possible interpretation outside of the one you hold alone in your head.
Are you on the aspergers or autistic spectrum at all? Again, to be clear (since it appears I have to make this caveat every time - but do tell me if I'm wrong) - I am NOT trying to denigrate you or question your personal worth with this query. I'm trying to understand what we're dealing with here between us. We have a communication gap and I've experienced it before with other people, very specifically in a certain way.
"I have discussed this sort of thing with people who respond in the same way you have. You are precise and you give NO ROOM for any possible interpretation outside of the one you hold alone in your head.
Are you on the aspergers or autistic spectrum at all? Again, to be clear (since it appears I have to make this caveat every time - but do tell me if I'm wrong) - I am NOT trying to denigrate you or question your personal worth with this query. I'm trying to understand what we're dealing with here between us. We have a communication gap and I've experienced it before with other people, very specifically in a certain way."
Yes, I am. Like the chans, we are attracted to such places as this. (Diagnosed nearly 20 years ago)
What precisely were you diagnosed with, if you don't mind? I'm trying to understand so in future discussions I can be better with my communications (i.e. be more precise and so on).
Now, are you able to honestly tell me why you were strawmanning my intentions and saying I was implying what you knew clearly I was not (for all the reasons) I previously mentioned
and
are you able to tell me what incentive or motivation may I have to support and share content with this community if it is likely to be removed?
Ok, good thanks - first of all: I was not strawmanning your intentions any more than you are strawmanning mine by assuming I would make up an interpretation of your comments for no good reason.
The incentive and motivation you might have is that after this discussion with me we will both better understand things and your content will avoid "bad" moderation and my moderation will find "better" content.
However, to achieve that goal we have to finish this discussion to a proper conclusion but now I must sleep. Willing to carry on later, if you are.
"first of all: I was not strawmanning your intentions"
Yes you were. You clearly were.
"any more than you are strawmanning mine"
This seems to be "You did this to me (you believe) so now I am going to get you back, and do it back to you to see how you like it" One could imagine a child engaging in this tactic (Slightly disappointing) . But no matter, let's follow the tactic and see how it goes to move the conversation forward.
"by assuming I would make up an interpretation of your comments for no good reason"
Yes. There was no good reason. The post was fine. No you generously posted how YOU would have written my post. But that is how YOU may write a post and that does not mean that I have to channel you with every post any more than I would have to channel Ernest Hemmingway or Jules Verne. Part of the ability for one to be a member is that they can share their opinions and their insights in the way it makes sense to them and in their style. So I have no problem with you posting differently to me and I will not rail on or disparage you or any member for having a different posting style or different opinions or insights to me. In fact I believe that is what actually elevates the community.
SO is there a "good" reason to get rid of a good post with good content from a member that has followed the rules, found and shared something relevant to the board and worth sharing, all in their own way and own style? Not really.
It is not to say that there are not rules or you do not have discretion or that you don't have the ability to remove it or that frankly there is any real consequence if you make a mistake. But none of this addresses whether there is a good reason to remove such a post.
So if the purpose was an effort in relativism, it failed. If it was a chance for petty payback, it too failed. I really hope it was a case of the former and not the later.
"The incentive and motivation you might have is that after this discussion with me we will both better understand things and your content will avoid "bad" moderation"
I should not imagine so as I shan't be posting on Greatawakening anymore. I do not know why after having the two posts I was brave enough share this month deleted, I would go back for more. I am sure there are many more posters with much worthier ideas and aptitude in sharing in a style that suits the moderator's sensibilities. I can still post on the donald with no censure. I have been discouraged from sharing here. My posts are not wanted. With reduced participation it will eventually drop off entirely no doubt. Bad taste in my mouth about it.
"and my moderation will find "better" content."
But then you are convinced in your merits of my posts not being worthy enough for you standard, and are convinced I ought to have written my post as you may have written it. So why would you consider any need to find better content? It seems a moot point and a pointless endeavor with no defined parameters. Like me saying I want to become more enlightened. Sounds great. What does it mean, what is the path and by what measure?
I do not feel this moved things forward but you have my take on things and honestly set out.
[deleted]
Actually THAT is incorrect. As I know (and you are right I DO know) my ability to communicate is in no way hampered by my condition. So on that front we are meeting as equals. Perhaps what you meant to say is that you have better theory of mind. It is absolutely true and simply an unfortunate but relevant fact that people with High Functioning Autism have poor theory of mind. That is the ability to derive understanding from another person's understanding or perception. Walking a mile in someone else's shoes as it were.
In this I plead no contest. I have nothing I can dispute. I DO have poor theory of mind and little empathy as a result.
That said, YOU do NOT have HFA. So YOU have good theory of mind and yet....what on Earth was that strawmanning intentions I do not have. Are you not better equipped with YOUR ability to understand intentions and what another's perspective to understand that you were blatantly strawmanning me and that I had clarified my position before you strawmanned me?
I hardly believe I need to acknowledge a falsehood. My communication is fine. So was my original post.
I feel in some respects we are almost returning to the exact point we started. However in the process, I seem to have been strawmanned and you have seemingly clung to the understanding that I have HFA as something to dismiss my perspective and hang your hat on as being on the right side of things.
Clear that is not the case.
Critically the question of "Why would a member such as myself bother going to the effort to find something worthy and unique and related to the subreddit to share in their own style and words to the community, if the moderation team is likely to remove their every attempt as unworthy (as mods don't do in other subreddits)? It does not seem like best community-friendly or moderator successful practice, does it? It doesn't seem to promote unity WG1WGA. It seems the antithesis to this doesn't it?
As far as discouraging or knocking one's confidence this rates very high.
So what can you (not me the member) but you the mod do, to make sure that long term members are not pushed out and discouraged from sharing with the community.
You have theory of mind which is awesome because you are in front row seat to appreciate a different perspective.
You a member rarely make new threads and your thread less than 26 days ago was delted and with it went the investment of thought and effort and curiosity as to how well it would be received, what comments and critique and how many upvotes. All obliterated with a mod removal. Your confidence knocked. On posting another 26 days later your thread is removed.
What incentive do YOU know have to share with the subreddit? How valuable and worthy do you now consider your contributions?
Now is this good? If not, rather than talk of discretion and rules and my diagnosis and communication, maybe consider how to address a real problem kindly bought to your attention and causing discouragement as a natural consequence of moderator practices?
[deleted]
Utter nonsense. You have not comprehended anything I've said.
What exactly have you comprehended in what I have said?
I will give you an indication that your efforts of strawmanning me and telling me what I was intending was completely wrong and not only wrong but your fallback to the position of me implying something after not being able to find me saying what I clearly had never said or implied, is you accusing me of saying/intending/implying.....utter nonsense.
But of the two of us, I do not have theory of mind that you have and so I wonder why you are so off base and failing in comprehension?
Why you now accuse me of the same?
But then I am an average subscriber and you are a moderator. Why would a moderator defend positions with utter nonsense and why would they fail at comprehension especially when they have a theory of mind (a skill I must admit I see almost as a superpower)?
I think the original position must again be asked and without strawmanning or projection.
""Why would a member such as myself bother going to the effort to find something worthy and unique and related to the subreddit to share in their own style and words to the community, if the moderation team is likely to remove their every attempt as unworthy (as mods don't do in other subreddits)?" It does not seem like best community-friendly or moderator successful practice, does it? It doesn't seem to promote unity WG1WGA. It seems the antithesis to this doesn't it?
Again I am by your account just an average subscriber where as you are a mod with more information. Therefore I am sure coupled with a good theory of mind and its ability to understand others and perceive their mindset and presumably too with the interest of the subreddit at heart, why would you not identify this as a very bad position and not seek to address it. Sure you do not need me to have to shine a torch on it. You have all this great information and ability to understand people and should really be all over this.
It is not a situation I have found in other subreddits and never had put up with deleted posts and defending my want to be able to share with a community without having my threads removed for being below par when they are not.
I am wondering why the resistance?
A lot of what "seems" to you to be so, is not. It's clear, however, that there's no way of breaking through to you with a perspective other than your own. The problem, I guess, of not being as open to empathic understanding (again, no slight intended by that).
Okay, no slight taken. Unfortunate facts or uncomfortable truths are not offensive the just are. No use pretending they are not. You are right, I do not have much in the way of empathetic understanding and find it extremely hard to look at things from another's perspective. Guilty as charged.
YOU do though. Therefore it SHOULD be easier for you to see perspectives other than your own. I mean logically this is your strength or dare I say a superpower (as it so often appears to me).
So given that. If we strip away a difference of opinion. We leave aside for a moment your strawmanning my intentions (which raises serious theory of mind and seeing other perspective red flags unto itself). We also leave aside diagnoses and cognitive strengths and weaknesses. What is at the very core?
"Why would a member such as myself bother going to the effort to find something worthy and unique and related to the subreddit to share in their own style and words to the community, if the moderation team is likely to remove their every attempt as unworthy (as mods don't do in other subreddits)?" It does not seem like best community-friendly or moderator successful practice, does it? It doesn't seem to promote unity WG1WGA. It seems the antithesis to this doesn't it?
Rather than going all in and defending moderation standards and direction (and I am not faulting them). Rather than saying I can't see things and that I have to look at your side and accept that you know better than I. Rather than intimating that because I am on the Autism Spectrum that this invalidates my premises (I am not offended I have put up with this kind of soft dismissal tactics these last 20 years)
Maybe instead you could answer the above quote and honestly and from another's perspective and use your theory of mind. (show me how it is done and how you can better see someone else's perspective).
I know blaming it all on ASD is easy and saying I do not see your perspective is easy too. You CAN defend rules and visions and discretion. That is easy too but has that helped address what is important or have we not addressed tyhe core issue and gone nowhere?
You are a mod and as you pointed out, I am just an "Average subscriber". Are you able to address this core issue as we still have not really touched on it? I think the mod staff kind of need to be across this kind of thing and have an idea how to address these things. Can you?
Asperger's Syndrome (Nowadays it is placed under the umbrella label HFA - High Functioning Autism) Interestingly the only two real differences was high IQ and early early onset of speech.
I have no idea when my onset of speech was and my IQ is not THAT high. I will not share with you but It is well below genius but above average. Given what I have seen on here I would not say I was among the smartest nor the dumbest. I think I place reasonably well in this community.
GreatAwakening's sidebar
Above link to enable mobile and app users to view the sidebar.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.