>>629112

>Not really a good idea to limit yourself by that. A more versatile weapon would fit this but other roles as well nicely.

>Alaskans already use the mighty ten against polar bear

>It'd work but it's easier to increase the size of the weapon a bit

The first thing you do when you design anything is to ask what and why. A properly loaded 10mm subgun easily matches .357 mag in energy, with the added advantages of three point mounting and a higher ammo capacity for a similar form factor as a hunter's 8 inch barreled .357, and a similar draw time in hairy, close-in situations. This is why I am unwilling to compromise on size- any larger and you'd legitimately need it on a sling all the time, which makes it in the way if you need to do anything with two hands-such as if you were fishing and suddenly a hungry animal(s) likes the salmon you just hooked. A handgun might do it, a revolver definitely will, and a subgun exactly the same size, same or better power, better weapon retention and aiming plus far more ammo available means it's a superior weapon for this situation.

>I don't like this, it'd shift center of gravity too much reducing handling characteristics of the gun and making the blot more complex both to machine, maintain and repair.

It could be done with a conventional bolting system, as after 7" of barrel you still have five inches of action left- well and truely enough for a short springer action. The real advantage that a telescoping bolt system would have is that you could mount the action even further into the rear if you wanted to bullpup the gun and let it have even more barrel. Really, I'm open to either. Classic bolt as you say for easier machining where CNC machines are not available and easier field stripping, or a telescoping bolt where a bullpup is demanded.

>It's not, read the thread.

I did mate. The simplest answer is that high pressure cartridges DO NOT use blowback because it would send the bolt clean through the chassis.

>And a gas system on a short barrel would fuck everything good that was left in the gun.

How? AR/AK pistols don't seem to have issues here. If you can get 2-3MOA for this gun, you're golden here, as 10mm cuts a rainbow past 125 and requires careful aim- you're not going past 175 under any stretch.

>Could you post a picture, please?

Can do, though I admit it's a kinda shitty pic for purpose. Basically pic related. The front sight has a series of steps leading up to the top of the sight that you can clearly align with the rear, making any gun fitted with these sights able to drop compensate real damned quick.

>You'll still probably not mount the sights on the muzzle. You could probably mount it on the handguard, even.

You want less radius so that you can pick off targets from a distance with the given sight setup. A stair-step mounted up close would look like a block in front of your target.

>You could just cut your barrel down and have the same OAL if you need to, or go even shorter and have it integrally suppressed under the handguard.

Doable considering barrel lengths are just a matter of where you put the parting off tool after rifling, though you'd be turning it into a short and quiet kebab removal tool also fine by me than a survivalist's short gun.

>It won't, it'll also ruin the barrel harmonics in lengths this short. That's all if you somehow even manage this ugly abomination cycle.

Provided you can mount the section of barrel that has the gas system to the chassis the rest of the barrel is not affected. Direct impingement varmint rifles exist, and the gun cycling is just a matter of adjusting the flow until it gives you the result you want.

>You still need to get your support hand somewhere

>And it'll be a lot easier when they jam,

These two I am willing to simply fold on because furniture design can be played with. We could have a proprietary double feed mag mounted forward of the trigger-grip for ease of manufacture, or go balls to the wall and have the same mag mounted inside the grip with a telescoping bolt for up to nine inches of barrel length for the same form.

I'm appreciating every single criticism you can come up with, as it means I have to really refine and defend the design choices I want and redo where you've pointed out it might not work.

Keep slapping my shit.

>>630093

>Somewhat true. Based on the data..

>And pistol caliber cartridges are not high pressure

I want to make the 10mm a 50kpsi cartridge before 25% proofing i.e make the dang thing unkillable and able to stuff +P+ loads down it's pipe all day, hence the wish for a gas system. 10mm as according to quickload is a fucking monster once you get pressures that high.

>What is this?

I meant just your average rifleman's stance of cheek shoulder and foregrip. Apologies for confusing you.

>Well, i like versatility more - you surely can cut down the gun for your required size but is this the only gun or its use you'll ever need?

A subgun's advantage is that it can be more powerful than a pistol despite being around the same size and using the same cartridge. The idea here is to give a leg-wearable weapon that's out of the way most of the time, with the agility of a pistol and short range rifleman's accuracy, allowing for one man to go innawoods with one gun that is always with him, and not behind him when he's at his weakest. Traditionally, this has been held by the handgun and powerful large revolver. I want to see if we can improve on that. A small subgun in a powerful, short cartridge fills this role nicely.

>They have their gas port pretty far down the barrel

True, but you can adjust for that with a gas screw.

>Interestingly, many AR platform pistol caliber conversions do put blowback action in there.

But we're trying to develop here a SMG with balls, not one gimped by SAAMI regulations that barely put 10mm 4kpsi above 40 shit and weak.

>Ok, i guess it's one of the things that are better to see once than told about 10 times

Managed to get a better pic for you. Sorry for causing hassle.

>Putting on a heat shroud on a full fun gun would be a good idea anyway due to heat obstructing sights picture, especially on open sights. Also, easily replaceable sights are a thing i'd like to see on any gun and i don't like that only pistols and tacticool ARs usually have it. It just adds so much options" fiber optics, tritium, peep, open, backup, foldable, whatever you want sights all without any custom gunsmithing.

None of this is really a problem with a muzzle mounted sight, I could easily fab a new sight for my revolver raifu if I wanted but I really don't, she shoots like a dream

>Hearing safe and comfortable to shoot as well as not alerting everyone at good 700m around you of your presence is never a bad thing, especially in survival situation.

Threaded barrel it is, then.

>Again, your gas system would either bulky, heavy, unwieldy

None of this is a problem in a CNC lathe for manufacturing, even in a manual machine only setting you can get away with simply mounting the barrel in an indexing head and making an extra thicc bushing for both the barrel and gas tube ala the 1911 that can be cross-pinned to the upper chassis for strength.

I think we're slowly closing on a formal design recommendation, I'd say interchangeable barrels might be in order. Maybe have the /k/ube woodsman (long) and the /k/ube kebab remover (short), both with threaded barrels. I might try and draw it up depending on how the next few days go.

>>630095

Pig disgustingly slow round that is only any good when it's pressure is upped to 40kpsi- there aren't many guns that can do that.

>>630312

Alot of this seems unneeded attempt to create an impossible all fit platform.

Not quite, this is meant as a short range fighting weapon. It's able to be drawn from a (leg) holster and fought as a pistol very effectively within spitting distance, whilst also folding out a stock and able to hunt all manner of non african game including kebab with a powerful pistol cartridge that reaches the top end of .357 magnum in power, and with more capacity than .45 super. The subgun holds advantages over a bullpupped rifle cartridge with similar overall dimensions, say, a 14 inch overall weapon.

>Muzzle blast

Given that a bullpup in 5.56 is going to consume at least 4.5 inches of the overall length just to cycle the action plus another 2.2 inches for the chamber, you are now left with a 7.3 inch barrel. Factory ammo may as well be a flamethrower at this barrel length, because most of the powder is just going to explode outside of the barrel, and would need to be loaded with magnum pistol powders in order to be worth a damn.

>Handloading

10mm and others at it's level can be used out of the box without adjustment for this size. 10mm is much better for handloading with at this level, since it can use any of the fast burning powders without fuss. Rifle cartridges require fillers like tissue paper or kapok to do the same, and it'll likely still have issues. Cost per round for a handloaded 10mm is lower overall since it uses much less powder than a 5.56.

>Weight and portability

You can design a subgun to be as strong as you need for the same or less weight than a rifle chambered bullpup.

>>630289

The central point of my design here is that it's meant to be carried as a large pistol, not as a rifle. You don't carry two loads of ammo unless you need to be sneeki-breeki.

Now, for russbro.

>>630270

>Would be pretty interesting, do you have any data on some specific loads? Not many pistols to be able to withstand that pressures though. You could carry different loads for the pistol though.

As said above to magyar-bro, this is meant as a large pistol able to fight at longer ranges in seconds. I'll need to reinstall quickload to bring up some loads that aren't in my head.

>I don't think we can get anything smaller than M3 without getting into autopistol category

The average adult male's femur is 18 inches in length. A design of 12 inches overall leaves a lot of room for error even for manlets and still stops it from influencing knee movement at an outside estimate of 14.

>Wasn't it a revolver and a hefty matching carbine?

I'm talking about the weapons on your side, not what combinations of weapons would be carried. Sorry for not clearing that up.

> tritium paint or something on every other "step" of the sights for better visibility?

You'd need to subdue the paint, or create a similar effect with tritium slits. Even so, you'd have to take steps to reduce the light bleeding into each other, like less steps on the sight- less precision. If night fighting is an order, a low profile red dot sight would be a better fit. A peep sight would have to be made to instantly level with the steps. The target sight I posted already acts like a ruler across each line.

>Yeah, though you'd want to raise the sights a bit

Certainly, many guns already include a dovetail fitted sight riser between the barrel and sight proper where a rail would affect how you see it.

>lever delayed blowback

See, now this is why I appreciate back and forth in a design conversation and having my shit slapped. I didn't think of lever delayed blowback at all- it consumes bugger-all space, strong as hell and just requires thinking out the geometry to accommodate standard and super hot ammo, with a bias towards the hotter end.

>Fire rate

360 rounds a second, or a split second with a three round burst. Weight with an action that uses leverage is not as much an issue as per straight blowback.

>doesn't matter that much, i suppose.

Correct, you could easily stick a different reamer down the same barrel and have a different bullet spitter.

>>631183

"Assault rifle" is a gun control term.

>>631272

I've repeated in this thread before that most commercial cartridges will not work in short barrels without lighting everything in front of you on fire unless loaded with a magnum pistol powder like H110 or W296. If you can do that, you've got a better performing weapon size for size.

That's the kicker though- you can make a much BETTER smaller weapon with an SMG because the cartridge OAL is smaller- a little over half the size of 5.56 in 10mm's case, and less for 9x19. For any given length dimension required for a 5.56 part, you can cut it in half to make a smaller gun with a competitive power to 5.56 or.300BO that isn't gimped by powder choice at the same length.

>>631012

>That's roughly the length of MP5K, and they have pistol length barrels(4.5")

I'm sure we can get it smaller so that we can squeeze a bit more barrel length out of it.

As for your idea:

>>631015

Bretty gud. The interesting thing about the base-plate and screw assembly is that if the screw strips they always do your gun defaults to the lowest spring pressure. My solution to having a problem with screws would be to require disassembly to adjust fire rate instead of on the fly- change the spring. If you need it done on the fly, you could also change the amount of resistance in the lever delay mechanism itself by applying a small friction wheel somewhere in the mechanism, which also means that you can change the gun to adopt mouse fart loads.

>>631744

He's using fast burning pistol powders in order to minimize muzzle flash, and getting similar results to high powered pistol rounds by handloading instead of using factory ammo. It's a pragmatic approach- if you don't want to develop a new platform and are willing to use a piston 10" AR-10 with a side-folding stock you would be able to achieve decent results for a subgun substitute provided the powder fill is high enough to consistently ignite. In fact, there's a good article here http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

Which deals explicitly in using fast burning powders with .30, 8 and 7mm cartridges to produce subsonic rounds in order to be quiet. It's a very good approach for mild rounds.

I'd be interested in seeing the burn rate for IMR4198 in the load he listed.

>>631751

You could certainly do a good job with a folding stocked G40 with a foregrip. At that size though, I think the lever delayed system would fare better for re-attaching 10mm's balls.

>>631749

>Out of a glock, no that will break something.

Precisely why we're talking about this- no blowback pistol has the ability to repeatedly wear 50kpsi without a delay.

Also, on thinking about it- in order to maintain a high barrel length for 12-14" size, the subgun discussed would pretty much have to be a bullpup fed through the trigger grip. Everything else would stay the same.

>>631763

For some reason I thought yoy were talking about a .308 cartridge. Fool on me.

>>631768

12 inches is the dead-nuts limit of length as according to my upper leg 5'11", conventional bolting only gives even with compressed springs and having the magwell intergrated into the front of the trigger guard of 6 inches. You get eight with a bullpup.