https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Papadopoulos-l10.25.18-Interview-Transcript_Redacted.pdf
>INTERVIEW OF: GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS
>Thursday, October 25, 2018 Washington, D.C.
Pages 113-117. The whole transcript is worth a read if you haven't already read it.
Clinesmith was not an administrative lackey.