dChan - Q Origins Project Archive

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=todd+beamer+cell+phone&ia=web

What about the Let’s Roll Heroes on Flight UA93?

Now consider Flight UA93, which allegedly crashed in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. A Hollywood movie, Let’s Roll, memorializes the way in which some brave passengers tackled the hijackers. Todd Beamer (who first said the Lord’s prayer) and Jeremy Glick are among the persons who made phone calls during flight.

President Obama has spoken of their heroism. But this, too, is part of the Government Myth. If a plane crashed at Shanksville, it must have performed a miracle of disappearance. According to the Peter Perl’s article in the Washington Post of May 2, 2002, the local coroner, Wallace Miller, said “I stopped being a coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies there.”

As explained in Elias Davidsson’s book, the phone calls may have been on the ground, by the correctly named parties reading from a script. They cannot have been made from the air. Todd Beamer’s call allegedly reached the GTE operator Lisa Jefferson (who told us all about it on Oprah). The call was not made from an airphone, as United had stopped using airphones in January, 2001.

The widows of Todd Beamer and Jeremy Glick have each written a book explaining the emotions they have gone through. I am a widow myself and the way these two women speak – Lisa Beamer, and Lyzbeth Glick – just does not sound right to me. Maybe I am wrong. Or maybe their professional editors poured too much public-relations tone into the writing.

I’m guessing that Todd and Jeremy are still alive. Todd’s cell phone did not get turned off by the crash. Rather, according to the FBI’s records, it made and received calls for many further hours. This was noted in the Wall Street Journal:

“Oddly, the Verizon wireless record shows that 19 calls were made from Beamer’s cell phone long after the crash of UA 93. Initial media reports and FBI interviews detailed more than a dozen cell phone calls from the planes at high elevation. Yet in 2001, a telephone spokesperson stated that sustained mobile calls were not possible above 10,000 feet.”

The WSJ did not print that until 2013, most likely to counter the shock of Elias Davisson’s new book at that time. Note how the stunning information is presented with no further word as to how it opens up the whole question of the Shanksville crash. (By the way, Davidsson credits many researchers for his discoveries.)

https://gumshoenews.com/2015/09/16/death-o-where-is-thy-sting-are-the-9-11-passengers-really-dead/

>>14551382

http://intelfiles.egoplex.com/#zmblackwater

Todd Beamer's Cell Phone

A couple of people have e-mailed me now about the item linked below, so I thought I would just save us all some time and briefly post my thoughts about the issues it raises.

This 9/29/2001 FBI lead sheet details phone calls made in relation to the cell phone of Todd Beamer, a passenger on United 93, the airplane hijacked on September 11 that crashed in Pennsylvania. Beamer is famously remembered for reporting that the passengers were planning to storm the cockpit and for issuing the call to that action: "Let's roll."

Todd Beamer cell phone log

The document is confusing. At first glance it appears to list calls that were made by Beamer using the cell phone. What raised questions with my correspondents is the fact that the log shows almost 20 calls after United 93 crashed. All of the calls related to a number in Woodbridge, NJ, and all of them are listed as exactly one minute (suggesting the call was not completed).

My best guess here is that the log represents calls to Beamer's cell, in which case the post-crash calls might have been someone with the phone company or the government pinging to locate the phone in the wreckage, or frantic calls from a friend or family member who was trying to ascertain whether Beamer had been on the flight. The latter theory might make more sense, since the calls start pretty early.

More confusingly, there is a call shortly before the flight took off listed as an "incoming call" with the "number called" being the same number that the document identifies as Beamer's cell phone. (This could be a call to listen to voicemail, or a call to voicemail paired with using the "reply to message" function that most voicemail offers.)

Even if you're of a conspiratorial bent on this issue (which I am not), it's difficult to believe the FBI would release a document showing that Beamer's cell phone was in use after the crash. The 9/11 Commission cites the document but doesn't comment on the post-crash entries.

I'm open to hearing an explanation. If you have actual and specific knowledge of how to read this document, feel free to drop me a line and I'll update this posting.

If you're just guessing, well, you're welcome to speculate and/or investigate-and-publish away, but this post represents the sum total of my insight on the document at this time, and I don't currently have a lot of time to devote to this (either in terms of investigating further or debating it via e-mail). If I get better information, I will post it here. Happy hunting…

Labels: 9-11, Todd-Beamer, United-93

Posted by J.M. Berger | Permalink

intersting stuff:

now ass the tik tok vid past breads (beamer)

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/loosechangeforums/viewtopic.php?t=4990

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=todd+beamer+cell+phone&ia=web

>>14551382

>As explained in Elias Davidsson’s book, the phone calls may have been on the ground, by the correctly named parties reading from a script. They cannot have been made from the air. Todd Beamer’s call allegedly reached the GTE operator Lisa Jefferson (who told us all about it on Oprah). The call was not made from an airphone, as United had stopped using airphones in January, 2001.

>>14551388

>>14551391

>>14551382

Todd Beamer's Odd Phone Call and the Silent Crash of Flight 93

Shoestring sun, 10/28/2007 - 4:47pm

Flight 93; Todd Beamer

A key element of the official 9/11 story is the phone call Todd Beamer made from United Airlines Flight 93 shortly before it supposedly crashed in rural Pennsylvania. It was at the end of this call that Beamer was heard declaring: "Let's roll," before joining a passenger revolt against the terrorists. Without this now-famous call to battle, 9/11 would arguably have been less effective in motivating the public to get behind the war on terror. By May 2002, the Washington Post reported, Beamer's phrase "Let's roll" had been "Embraced and promoted by President Bush as a patriotic battle cry," and was "now emblazoned on Air Force fighter planes, city firetrucks, school athletic jerseys, and countless T-shirts, baseball caps and souvenir buttons. It's also commemorated in popular songs." [1] The London Evening Standard called Beamer's final words "a symbol of America's determination to fight back." [2] Rowland Morgan, author of the book Flight 93 Revealed, concluded: "Truly, the Let's Roll slogan had become a call to arms–just at a time the White House needed it most." [3] Yet, an examination of Todd Beamer's phone call reveals numerous oddities, coincidences, and seeming impossibilities.

THE ODD PHONE CALL

For 13 minutes, Beamer had spoken with Lisa Jefferson, a customer service supervisor at GTE Airfone's Chicago call center. He explained to her that his plane had been hijacked, and, assisted by a flight attendant sitting next to him, provided details about the flight. He also talked about his pregnant wife and two young sons. Being a devout Christian, he asked Jefferson to recite the Lord's Prayer with him, and then recited the 23rd Psalm. Before declaring his famous last words, Beamer said some of the passengers were going to try and seize control of the plane. At around 9:58 a.m., he put the phone down and was heard saying to someone else: "You ready? OK. Let's roll." [4]

The first thing that was odd about this call is the simple fact that Beamer was able to talk to Jefferson continuously for 13 minutes. In her 2002 book, his wife Lisa Beamer revealed that Jefferson had informed her "it was a miracle that Todd's call hadn't been disconnected." The reason: "Because of the enormous number of calls that day, the GTE systems overloaded and lines were being disconnected all around her as she sat at the operator's station outside of Chicago, talking to Todd. [Jefferson] kept thinking, This call is going to get dropped! Yet Todd stayed connected … all the way to the end." [5] Very fortunate indeed this was, because if the call had become disconnected there would have been no "Let's roll" slogan for the war on terror.

A further oddity was Todd Beamer's remarkable calmness, despite the catastrophic situation he was in. Jefferson recalled: "Todd, when he came to me, he was calm. … [H]e stayed calm through the entire conversation." [6] In her 2006 book, Called, Jefferson wrote: "[H]is voice was devoid of any stress. In fact, he sounded so tranquil it made me begin to doubt the authenticity and urgency of his call." [7] She told Beamer's wife: "If I hadn't known it was a real hijacking, I'd have thought it was a crank call, because Todd was so rational and methodical about what he was doing." [8]

cont:

WHY DIDN'T BEAMER TALK TO HIS WIFE?

At some point during the call, Beamer said he did not think he was going to survive, telling Jefferson: "I know we're not going to make it out of here." [9] He gave her his home phone number and said: "If I don't make it out of this, would you please call my family and let them know how much I love them?" [10] Yet he refused offers to be put through to his wife. Jefferson has recalled: "I asked if he wanted to be connected to his wife." But, "he said no, that he did not want to upset her as they were expecting their third child in January." [11]

However, before reaching the call center, Todd Beamer had supposedly been trying to call his wife, but was simply unable to get through. [12] According to a summary of passenger phone calls presented at the 2006 trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, Beamer tried making this call just before 9:44 a.m., but it had been "terminated upon connection." [13] His wife has recalled that she heard her phone ring twice before stopping, and then, moments later, ringing once more. She said: "When I picked it up, it was dead air. I feel fairly confident that it was Todd. It would be on his mind to call me, to protect me." [14] According to some accounts, he reached the call center because his call was automatically routed there when his attempt at reaching his wife failed. [15] (However, other accounts claim he'd reached it by dialing "0" on the Airfone. [16])

The question remains: If Todd Beamer really did not want to talk to his wife because she was pregnant and he was afraid he might upset her, why had be been trying to phone her in the first place? Even if we somehow accept that he'd changed his mind over the space of a few minutes, another question arises: Why had Beamer not instead asked Jefferson to try and put him through to his parents, or one of his sisters, or another relative, or a friend? Instead, he'd apparently been content to talk with a stranger, explaining to Jefferson: "I just want to talk to somebody and just let someone know that this is happening." [17]

THE SILENT CRASH OF FLIGHT 93

Perhaps the oddest aspect of the call is what happened after 9:58, when Todd Beamer put the phone down to join the passenger revolt against the hijackers. Jefferson has recalled: "After he said, 'Let's roll,' he left the phone, and I would assume that's at the point that they went to charge the cockpit. And I was still on the line and the plane took a dive, and by then, it just went silent. I held on until after the plane crashedprobably about 15 minutes longer and I never heard a crashit just went silent because–I can't explain it. We didn't lose a connection because there's a different sound that you use. It's a squealing sound when you lose a connection. I never lost connection, but it just went silent." [18]

Now how is this possible? Firstly, how could the call have remained connected after the plane crashed? According to the summary of passenger phone calls presented at the Moussaoui trial, Beamer's call lasted "3,925 seconds." [19] This would mean it did not end until 10:49 a.m., about three-quarters of an hour after Flight 93 supposedly crashed. And, secondly, how could there have been silence when the crash occurred?

cont:

WAS BEAMER'S CALL RECORDED?

Considering that Todd Beamer's call is central to the official 9/11 narrative, it would be helpful if a recording of it were available to be properly analyzed. However, all that supposedly exists is a summary written by Jefferson. According to journalist and author Jere Longman: "GTE-Verizon did not routinely tape its telephone calls. As a supervisor, [Jefferson] would have been the one to monitor the taping, but she did not want to risk losing the call." [20] In her own book, Jefferson claimed she had "not had a chance to press the switch in my office that initiates the taping of a conversation." [21] Rowland Morgan has pointed out that this means the evidence of Beamer's call is "single-sourced, unsubstantiated hearsay of which there was no record. … [Jefferson] had no idea what Beamer's voice sounded like, and she would never hear it again to judge whether he had actually been speaking to her." [22] However, a week after 9/11 the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette had claimed otherwise, stating that, "because it was to an operator," the call "was tape-recorded." [23] If a recording of the call indeed exists, it has been kept well hidden.

Todd Beamer's call in fact only came to light five days after the attacks, in a report in the Post-Gazette. [24] Beamer's wife first learned of it three days after the attacks, in a phone call from United Airlines. Until then, the FBI had been keeping the information private until it had an opportunity to review it. (Yet how long does it take to review a written summary of a 13-minute phone call?) [25] An FBI agent had phoned Lisa Jefferson on the afternoon of 9/11. She recalled: "I was told to maintain secrecy. In fact, he stressed the importance of keeping the matter under wraps." [26] But why? What was there to hide?

THE SHAKY FOUNDATION OF THE WAR ON TERROR

Clearly, many things seem odd about Todd Beamer's phone call. For now, it is really up to each of us to decide what we think was going on. But it should concern us all that the war on terror is founded upon such dubious evidence. This war, after all, has caused the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of Afghans, and over a million Iraqis. It's time to go back and properly investigate the event that started it all.

cont:

NOTES

[1] Peter Perl, "Hallowed Ground." Washington Post, May 12, 2002.

[2] James Langton, "Pain and Joy of 11." Evening Standard, August 19, 2002.

[3] Rowland Morgan, "Flight 93 'Was Shot Down' Claims Book." Daily Mail, August 18, 2006.

[4] Jere Longman, Among the Heroes: United Flight 93 and the Passengers and Crew Who Fought Back. New York: Simon & Schuster, 2002, pp. 198-200 and 203-204; Wes Smith, "Operator Can't Forget Haunting Cries From Flight 93." Orlando Sentinel, September 5, 2002.

[5] Lisa Beamer and Ken Abraham, Let's Roll!: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Courage. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 2002, p. 217.

[6] Wendy Schuman, "'I Promised I Wouldn't Hang Up.'" Beliefnet, 2006.

[7] Lisa Jefferson and Felicia Middlebrooks, Called. Chicago: Northfield Publishing, 2006, p. 33.

[8] Lisa Beamer and Ken Abraham, Let's Roll! p. 211.

[9] Douglas Holt, "Call Records Detail How Passengers Foiled 2nd Washington Attack." Chicago Tribune, September 16, 2001.

[10] Jere Longman, Among the Heroes, p. 200.

[11] Wes Smith, "Operator Can't Forget Haunting Cries From Flight 93."

[12] U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, "Stipulation [Regarding Flights Hijacked on September 11, 2001; September 11, 2001 Deaths; al Qaeda; Chronology of Hijackers' Activities; Zacarias Moussaoui; and the Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-Screening System (CAPPS)]." March 1, 2006, p. 11.

[13] U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, "Summary From Flight 93 Depicting: The Identity of Pilots and Flight Attendants, Seat Assignments of Passengers, and Telephone Calls From the Flight." July 31, 2006.

[14] Jaxon Van Derbeken, "Bound by Fate, Determination: The Final Hours of the Passengers Aboard SF-Bound Flight 93." San Francisco Chronicle, September 17, 2001.

[15] Karen Breslau, "The Final Moments of United Flight 93." Newsweek, September 22, 2001; Dennis B. Roddy, "Flight 93: Forty Lives, One Destiny." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, October 28, 2001; Glen Johnson, "Probe Reconstructs Horror, Calculated Attacks on Planes." Boston Globe, November 23, 2001; U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, March 1, 2006, p. 11.

[16] Jim McKinnon, "GTE Operator Connects With, Uplifts Widow of Hero in Hijacking." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, September 19, 2001; Jere Longman, Among the Heroes, pp. 198-199; Wes Smith, "Operator Can't Forget Haunting Cries From Flight 93."

[17] Jere Longman, Among the Heroes, p. 204.

[18] Wendy Schuman, "'I Promised I Wouldn't Hang Up.'"

[19] U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, July 31, 2006.

[20] Jere Longman, Among the Heroes, p. 199.

[21] Lisa Jefferson and Felicia Middlebrooks, Called, p. 36.

[22] Rowland Morgan, "Flight 93 'Was Shot Down' Claims Book."

[23] Jim McKinnon, "GTE Operator Connects With, Uplifts Widow of Hero in Hijacking."

[24] Jim McKinnon, "The Phone Line From Flight 93 Was Still Open When a GTE Operator Heard Todd Beamer Say: 'Are You Guys Ready? Let's Roll.'" Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, September 16, 2001.

[25] Lisa Beamer and Ken Abraham, Let's Roll! pp. 185-186.

[26] Lisa Jefferson and Felicia Middlebrooks, Called, p. 69.

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Hey Shoestring

You do good work.

cont:

johndoraemi on Sun, 10/28/2007 - 10:15pm.

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That's a stunning research paper on the Todd Beamer call!

I should say the alleged call, because there are so many inexplicable, bizarre, & downright preposterous aspects in the entire affair, it really seems staged to me. (I don't think the customer service supervisor, Lisa Jefferson, was in on it, but she ended-up on the other end of the phone during this ruse.)

I remember the Mark Bingham & Betty Ong phone calls where shown to have many absurd aspects in them as well!

Colombo on Sun, 10/28/2007 - 11:24pm.

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An problem with all this

>>Why had Beamer not instead asked Jefferson to try and put him through to his parents, or one of his sisters, or another relative, or a friend?

While I appreciate the diligent research effort, the problem with the whole area of psychoanalyzing the intentions of those making the phone calls is that these questions can never be answered and will translate into "disrespect" for the victims by the rightwing, who scream that from their websites.

The fact is, there are an infinite number of possible reasons for any question we can ask about his intentions around the phone calls (he was scared, he was having an affair and couldn't decide who to call, he knew his wife would freak out, he wasn't on speaking terms with his family, he thought he would somehow survive and didn't want to upset them, he was in shock and not thinking clearly, etc.), making the basis for those questions easy fodder for attacks like these –

"Hey, you know what, David? Screw you! Questioning Tom Burnett's decision not to talk to his children when he is in the middle of the most stressful situation in his life is patently offensive. This is not freaking Hollywood where he had plenty of time to say goodbye, he was about to risk his life to save it. How dare you question that decision?

Tom Burnett is a national hero."

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search/label/David%20Ray%20Griffin

Victronix on Sun, 10/28/2007 - 11:29pm.

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No, there was far more than just "psychoanalyzing intentions"

in that excellent paper by Shoestring. I'd say Shoe has shown the phone call to be a fraud.

Colombo on Sun, 10/28/2007 - 11:44pm.

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how often do you use SLC as

how often do you use SLC as a source?

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA

cont:

Chris on Mon, 10/29/2007 - 7:42am.

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Good Point Victronix….

Shoestring wrote an excellent piece as usual. And Victronix's reply was thoughtful and intelligent as usual– and should not have been voted down….

However, the issue is not that we are psychoanalyzing Beamer's intentions. It is that we are questioning whether it was him who made the phone call in the first place. The analogy between Beamer's (alleged) call and Burnett's call is not a good one. We know it was Burnett who made the calls, because it was his wife who took the calls– that is, you know that unless you are living in voice-morphing la-la land.

We have every right to suspect that "Beamer's" call was faked, mostly because it was made to a complete stranger and thus no voice-morphing trickery would have been necessary. And also because "his" call valididates the official story on every account, whereas Burnett specifically mentioned guns in the possession of the hijackers.

andrewkornkven on Mon, 10/29/2007 - 10:11am.

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Just presenting evidence and asking questions

Victronix wrote:

While I appreciate the diligent research effort, the problem with the whole area of psychoanalyzing the intentions of those making the phone calls is that these questions can never be answered and will translate into "disrespect" for the victims by the rightwing, who scream that from their websites.

Really, I was not trying to psychoanalyze the interntions of Todd Beamer. I was more concerned with whether this call was indeed made by Beamer in the first place, and whether it was really made from Flight 93. Certainly, the fact that it supposedly did not end until 10:49 a.m., and the fact that there was silence at the time when Flight 93 supposedly crashed, raises serious cause for concern.

As always, my preferred approach is to present evidence, draw attention to oddities, and raise what I consider to be legitimate questions. As I state at the end of my posting, it is then up to readers to decide what they make of it all. The only hard conclusion I come to is that there is a need for a proper investigation of the Todd Beamer phone call.

http://www.shoestring911.blogspot.com

Shoestring on Mon, 10/29/2007 - 11:05am.

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Research methods

>>As always, my preferred approach is to present evidence, draw attention to oddities, and raise what I consider to be legitimate questions.

It's fine to "just ask questions" – this is how research is done and is best done on forums within the research community.

Lot's of people say that Loose Change is "just questions" and so it never actually makes any claims, but we will also find that some of the baseless claims on which the questions rest are all over the mainstream media, right wing sites etc, like the idea that FL 93 was swapped in Cleveland. That doesn't help us move forward, when the questions have little basis in a line of inquiry that can go someplace. So saying that these are "just questions" is not really answering the critique but avoiding it. Sometimes questions themselves are suggestive. I think most of your questions are great, and only have a concern with this area because it feeds detractors efforts.

One also has to ask, is the personal and private intention of Beamer a legitimate question? That's a very different question than wondering if it were Beamer making the call (or if the phone call were "faked") because it suggests that we can better understand if it were him if we can get an answer to, for example, "Why didn't he call his wife?", and that it provides evidence that this wasn't him. Ultimately, this line of questioning is logically impossible to get an answer to, so it mainly presents something which exposes the rest of the research to easy attack and misdirection.

The types of evidence that might suggest he never made the call can come from many sources, but not the personal decisions he appears to have made that day since those are logically impossible for us to know. People do a lot of strange things when they are close to death.

cont:

Revealed OR Concealed?

A Critical Review of 9/11 Revealed

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/911revealed/index.html

Victronix on Mon, 10/29/2007 - 3:58pm.

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One addition regarding when

One addition regarding when the Beamer story was revealed:

From Rowland Morgan's "Flight 93 Revealed":

"Strangely, Lisa Beamer soon learned that the FBI had not kept the call so secret after all. Larry Ellison, boss of Oracle, the company Todd worked for, had spun the story of Todd the hero aboard Flight 93 on Thursday, before anyone else knew of Todd's phone call…. What did Larry Ellison have to do with it? The very next night he was on television calling for the introduction of a national ID card, something his company would be very interested in supplying to the Bush government at enormous cost."

Oracle's coziness with government goes back to its founding

Firm's growth sustained as niche established with federal, state agencies

Todd Wallack, San Francisco Chronicle Staff Writer

May 20, 2002

"From a Central Intelligence Agency deal that launched the firm 25 years ago, to recent software contracts in Sacramento and Los Angeles, Oracle is no stranger to the halls of political power. The CIA was not just Oracle's first customer. Founded in May 1977, the firm's name came from a CIA project code-named "Oracle." Company co-founders Larry Ellison, Robert Miner and Ed Oates worked on Project Oracle at a consulting firm, before striking out on their own. A quarter century later, close to a quarter of the company's revenue $2. 5 billion a year still comes from selling software to federal, state and local agencies. "Oracle wouldn't exist if it weren't for government contracts," said Mike Wilson, author of the book "The Difference Between God and Larry Ellison."

"Oracle has 1,000 sales and consulting workers focused exclusively on government work. And in the wake of Sept. 11, Oracle is counting on the heightened interest in staving off terrorism to boost its government ties even more. "Oracle has been actively pitching software to local governments to create detailed digital maps that could be used to respond to attacks. In March, the company formed a partnership to focus on airport security. Ellison even offered to give the federal government software to help create a national ID to thwart terrorists."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/05/20/MN209661.DTL

https://youtu.be/AeXS6l2nhQY

let's roll the gold ticket holders with lead on live tv

>>14551382

>>14551412

>A key element of the official 9/11 story is the phone call Todd Beamer made from United Airlines Flight 93 shortly before it supposedly crashed in rural Pennsylvania. It was at the end of this call that Beamer was heard declaring: "Let's roll," before joining a passenger revolt against the terrorists.

Without this now-famous call to battle, 9/11 would arguably have been less effective in motivating the public to get behind the war on terror.

By May 2002, the Washington Post reported, Beamer's phrase "Let's roll" had been "Embraced and promoted by President Bush as a patriotic battle cry,"

and was "now emblazoned on Air Force fighter planes, city firetrucks, school athletic jerseys, and countless T-shirts, baseball caps and souvenir buttons.

It's also commemorated in popular songs." [1] The London Evening Standard called Beamer's final words "a symbol of America's determination to fight back."

[2] Rowland Morgan, author of the book Flight 93 Revealed, concluded: "Truly, the Let's Roll slogan had become a call to arms–just at a time the White House needed it most."

[3] Yet, an examination of Todd Beamer's phone call reveals numerous oddities, coincidences, and seeming impossibilities.

Todd Beamer aint ded

-neither is Ashli Babbit Jan 6 muh insurection

>>14551425

>>14551382

>>14551412

>examination of Todd Beamer's phone call reveals numerous oddities, coincidences, and seeming impossibilities.

>>14551412

>>14551382

>What about the Let’s Roll Heroes on Flight UA93?

>Now consider Flight UA93, which allegedly crashed in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. A Hollywood movie, Let’s Roll, memorializes the way in which some brave passengers tackled the hijackers. Todd Beamer (who first said the Lord’s prayer) and Jeremy Glick are among the persons who made phone calls during flight.

>President Obama has spoken of their heroism. But this, too, is part of the Government Myth.

If a plane crashed at Shanksville, it must have performed a miracle of disappearance.

According to the Peter Perl’s article in the Washington Post of May 2, 2002,

the local coroner, Wallace Miller, said

“I stopped being a coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies there.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveonline/02/magazine/magazine_perl051302.htm

>Peter Perl’s article in the Washington Post of May 2, 2002,

Post Magazine

This Week:

The Day the Sky Fell on Shanksville

With Peter Perl

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, May 13, 2002; 1 p.m. EDT

When United Flight 93, travelling at 575 mph, crashed almost straight down into a rolling patch of grassy land on Sept. 11, a tiny town opened its heart in legendary fashion. Now the people there are trying to find a fitting way to commemorate that in the skies of Pennsylvania, over the county of Somerset, in the township of Stonycreek, near the borough of Shanksville, a group of desperate, brave Americans gave their lives in the war against 21st-century terror.

Peter Perl, whose article "Hallowed Ground" appeared in Sunday's Washington Post Magazine, was online Monday, May 13 at 1 p.m. EDT, field questions and comments about the article and the legend of Flight 93.

Perl is a Washington Post Magazine staff writer.

A transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Peter Perl: Welcome to our on-line chat regarding the aftermath of the September 11th crash of Flight 93 in Pennsylvania. There's a bunch of questions already waiting, so we'll get right to them….

Annandale, Va.: Do you think the local population would accept an "Iwo Jima" type of monument at the crash site or do they want things left are they are at present?

Peter Perl: The crash site is a very beautiful spot, and the town is a quiet place. So there is strong local sentiment to do as little as possible that will alter the basic nature–particularly because the surrounding woods are actually the "cemetery" where the human remains have gone. But the actual design of the monument itself is several years off, so it is too early to tell if an "Iwo Jima" type monument would be popular. My sense is that it will be something much more low-key that blends into the natural surroundings.

Washington, D.C.: Do you think that the Americans who died on UAL93 should receive a Congressional or Presidential medal or both? I believe they saved us from another ground zero here in D.C. I would like to be there if there are any plans for a ceremony here.

cont:

cont: The Day the Sky Fell on Shanksville

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveonline/02/magazine/magazine_perl051302.htm

Peter Perl: Judging from the thousands of people who continue to go far out of their way to visit the remote Flight 93 crash site, you are surely not alone in that sentiment. There will of course be numerous ceremonies on September 11th honoring their deaths, both in Washington and in Somerset County. I suspect both the Congress and the president will want to give them the highest of honors.

Rockville, Md.: I read with interest your article on Flight 93 and the attempt of the people of Shanksville to memorialize the victims. But I have a question: Exactly what do they want to do? It seems as if they are in a quandary about how to best remember the people who died in that plane hijacking. Are there any people who just think things should be left alone and let people remember in their own way? You can already see the mood of the country change. People aren't as vehement as they were six months ago. Do you think that will happen in Shanksville?

Peter Perl: Interesting question. The people in Pennsylvania do not have any consensus yet on what to do, except for a shared sense of responsibility to do something fitting and appropriate. It can't ever be "left alone" because people will continue coming there, but there are certainly many locals who would like to see a "minimalist" rather than a larger, more overtly heroic type of monument.

Arlington, Va.: Do we yet know definitively what happened on the flight?

Peter Perl: We really do not know that, and I believe we never will know that. That, to me, is a large part of the reason why this story is so haunting and why all 40 passengers and crew should be honored equally. We only know what several people said in cell-phone conversations, and beyond that we have only a non-conclusive 30-minute cockpit voice recording.

Ballston, Va.: I'm surprised and offended by the fact that you described the sexual orientation of one of the passengers on the flight. What could his being gay have possibly contributed to the reader?

Peter Perl: I'm sorry that this particular detail offended you. It was included only in a particular context; I introduced readers to what I called a "wonderfully American mix of men and women of action" on board Flight 93, and then I included a bunch of details that illustrated the diversity of those people. What it contributed to the reader was simply the idea that being gay is part of that diversity. At least that was the intent.

Philadelphia: Is there a hope that a memorial will be erected by the one year anniversary of the Sept. 11 tragedy?

Peter Perl: No. There is no timetable and a better guess might be three to five years for the kind of complicated process that will involve local, state, and federal officials and local residents and the Flight 93 families.

Rockville, Md.: I found the article very interesting. However, I do have a concern about Al Mascherino and his plan for a church. I wonder what his agenda is? To sell souvenirs after such a disaster is cruel. They should leave Shankville alone.

Peter Perl: Local residents are indeed concerned about the intentions of Mr. Mascherino, a former priest, in reopening an old church building as a "nondenominational chapel" selling commemorative items. He assures them it will be in good taste and not for profit. He has his doubters, but also supporters. People there are very strong in their desire to somehow hold the line and not get overrun as a touristy destination.

Arlington, Va.: I think you just hit an important issue on the head. The need to appropriately honor all of the victims. I think I am not alone in thinking it is a shame that the wife of one particular victim has gone to such great lengths to put herself and her husband out there as the only people who matter in this tragedy. There seems to be a pretty big backlash against Mrs. Beamer online because of the way she has put herself in such a media spotlight while we never ever hear anything much about the other victims or their families.

Peter Perl: I have heard this sentiment about Lisa Beamer from various people, including a few Flight 93 families. But I think most people do not blame her. She found herself in a white-hot spotlight of international media and has tried to do the right thing, according to other Flight 93 families, the majority of whom do not resent her activities.

Alexandria, Va.: Is it still true that the president and vice president have never visited the crash site? Is it for security reasons? Your article left the impression that no one cares.

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Peter Perl: Mrs. Bush visited the area, but neither President Bush nor Vice President Cheney has been there. It would not be a question of security because they have visited far more dangerous places. People in Pennsylvania believe their site has simply been overshadowed by the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Nobody has suggested that "no one cares," rather they feel somewhat forgotten when compared to the bigger sites.

Maryland: Your article was objective and poignant. Now here's a thought for you to ponder. Our nation's decision to fight back against terrorism was made just minutes after the World Trade Center and Pentagon crashes, i.e. aboard Flight 93, when that heroic group of Americans decided to stand up and resist those suicidal dirtbags. We all can draw inspiration from their actions, even though we'll never know the full story.

Peter Perl: Thank you for your comment.

Re: Ballston: Your intent to describe the American diversity on the plane was quite obvious. The Ballston complainer needs to learn about "context" and stop taking a few words out of a paragraph and getting 'offended.' Most of the people I know knew your intent. It was quite clear in the context of that paragraph.

Peter Perl: Thank you. It's inevitable when you put words on paperor online that they will mean different things to everyone.

Mt. Vernon, Va.: With so many involved in the apparent struggle with the terrorists on Flight 93 – how could the government fairly recognize the bravest of the brave with medals of honor, without appearing to discriminate against the others?

Would they really consider giving everyone a medal? Forty in all?

Peter Perl: Several of the "name" passengers, particularly Todd Beamer, have had things named in their honor, such as a U.S. Post Office or a local school. But I would be very surprised if individuals would be singled out for medals of honor without honoring all 40 passengers. We really do not know who did what in those last few minutes that brought down the plane. We just know that people who feared for their lives took the greatest of risks to try to save themselves and save others as well.

Falls Church, Va.: The article is impressive, especially the close-up frames the author found to touch the bottom of the hearts of us, people who were not there but in the front of TV set: "… a waiter going to his son's funeral."

I am from Romania, the single one Eastern European country who signed in blood the switch toward democracy in 1989. Part of that scenario was live, part was staged in advance with cynicism. That experience built up for me the question: Nobody there asked if the 93 wasn't it shut down in the national interest? In my country that's what ordinary people think about it!

I asked this question only because "The Washington Post" made history with Watergate and I respect that a lot. It is the proof that shows that press can be the 4th power.

Peter Perl: Thanks for your question. As I understand it, you are addressing the possibility that Flight 93 was actually shot down by U.S. forces. Inevitably, there will be conspiracy theorists who cling to this & other ideas. There was no credible evidence to support it, so it was not addressed at all in this story.

Williamsburg, Va.: More a comment than a question. First, let me say how much I appreciate your sensitivity on how a small community, not at all overwhelmed by the tragedy, came to grips, as only they could, with the events that came after Sept. 11. It is America showing itself truly as it is. An all encompassing, warm, caring, community of people. We show best when the chips are down and the "Let's Roll" exhibits that as well. Great article, Mr. Perl, and one that needed to be written. Give those wonderful people credit in small town Pennsylvania, USA!

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Peter Perl: Thank you for your comment. I must say that after living and working in Washington more than 20 years, I find my visits to "small town America" generally tend to restore my faith in what is best about this country.

Columbia, Md: Can we get a link to the article online? Thanks.

washingtonpost.com: Hallowed Ground, (Post Magazine, May 12)

Peter Perl: Yes, here's your link.

Washington, D.C. Re: BALLSTON: Not to harp on this, but I too was irritated by the mention of the sexual orientation of one passenger. The other "diversities" were, as I recall, much more about profession and hobby not about gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. It seems to me that you did flub this one you should either have left out "gay" or described some other, more personal, attributes ("a Jewish police officer, a Native American nurse," etc) to some of the other passengers. Even in context, his sexual orientation was a step out of line with your descriptions of the others.

Peter Perl: Fair enough. I understand your point.

Alexandria, Va.: The Sept. 11 hijackers wore headbands, just as Palestinian suicide bombers do when posing for pre-attack photos.

Why did the Sept. 11 hijackers put on these headbands? Does the similar attire indicate some prior contact of some kind between the Sept. 11 hijackers and Palestinian suicide bombers?

Peter Perl: I have no idea about the meaning of the headbands for this particular group of hijackers. Perhaps other readers have ideas.

Washington, D.C.: There has been much focus on the voice-recorder and the struggle between hijackers and passengers, but what about the flight data recorder? Did they recover it, and if so, what does it reveal? Has it been analyzed in conjunction with the voice recorder? Thank you for the article.

Peter Perl: Thank you. Both of the recorders were recovered. But other than the erratic movements and the fluctuations in speed, I do not believe it shed any important light on what actually happened inside the plane.

Kensington, Md.: As one who responded to Somerset, Pa., with the DMORT Team, I just wanted to thank you for a very insightful article. Having working to support Wally during "93", I found him to be just as you portrayed in the story.

George S. Holborow.

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Peter Perl: Thanks very much. It is always important to me to hear that kind of feedback from someone who was actually there. Everyone who had contact with the DMORT (for the non-initiated, that is the Disaster Mortuary team organized by the federal government) said that the people who had to perform this awful work did so with great professionalism and also helped as much as they could under the terrible circumstances.

Reston, Va.: If the guilty control the evidence, why would they release it and suffer the consequences of their actions? Why types of non-governmental sources of evidence are there for passenger jets shot down in the middle of the nation?

To believe there is a possibility that 93 was shot down does not require a conspiracy theory, just a belief that the government is capable of extreme incompetence and irresponsibility. Is that so far out that it can't be considered in mainstream journalism?

Peter Perl: Your point is well-taken. I did not mean to suggest that it could not or should not be considered in mainstream journalism. I meant that there has been no credible evidence that has emerged to suggest such guilt. There were other non-governmental sources, such as eyewitness accounts and reports from other planes in the area.

Washington, D.C.: Headbands – it's not a conspiracy, it's just the easiest way for members to recognize one another in the heat of battle. The terrorists red bandannas surely had no more meaning than to help them identify one another in the blink of an eye.

For the same reason, Palestinian suicide bombers do NOT wear the headbands when they attack – that in itself would tip off their Israeli targets.

Peter Perl: Thank you. Yes, that was my impression as well.

Alexandria, Va.: Okay, people, we're in America, the home of "E Pluribus Unum"; can we at long last have done with being offended about identification of the heroes' various diverse traits?

Next you'll be getting upset when someone is identified as a man. If you want to take offense at every little thing, go to the middle east, where a thousand years later, they're still furious (at us, for some reason) about the Crusades.

Those people gave their lives so others would live. In that context, how much more petty can you get than to be offended by the mention that one of them was gay?

Yeesh.

Peter Perl: I think it's too easy to get side-tracked by side issues. The person in Ballston expressed an opinion, and we all got to consider it. We can disagree without getting disagreeable.

Re: Ballston: You describe one passenger as a "devout Christian". What's the difference between that and describing one passenger as "gay"? The person in Ballston did not object to that. Both are correct characterizations of those persons. Does the person in Ballston object to accurate reporting?

Peter Perl: The "devout Christian" was introduced only at the point in the story to explain the prayers recited as the plane went down. Sometimes characterizations feel totally appropriate, and other times they may feel extraneous, or even offensive. I see Ballston's point.

Arlington, Va.: No offense but I never understood the rush of the relatives of those who died on flight 93 to claim that their relative rushed the hijacker or started the revolt or whatever. I mean, no one can know that and what good did it do anyway? Just let them go in peace.

Peter Perl: I believe that once the news media zeroed in on several passengers who spoke about their intent to rush the cockpit, several family members of unnamed or uncelebrated passengers felt understandably that their loved one had been overlooked. Under that kind of duress, you gotta cut them a little slack if they seem thin-skinned.

Washington, D.C.: Even if the government had shot down Flight 93, how would that be an example of "extreme incompetence and irresponsibility?" It was a fully-fueled airliner headed towards the nation's capital; we had just seen how deadly such an attack could be with the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. What else COULD the government do in such a situation?

Peter Perl: That's an important point. The question was about the honesty/dishonesty in acknowledging it–if it had been done.

Peter Perl: Thanks very much for your questions and comments.