April 13, 2023 10:30 PM
https://slate.com/transcripts/U1Vtai81SDFlUlhPZXNwaUhPczVNWWxmaFRscC9STU1jZHRUR2VzTlhORT0=
https://slate.com/podcasts/what-next/2019/11/8chan-internet-offline
Guest:Robert Evans, investigative journalist forBellingcatand host of the podcast Behind the Bastards.
Episode Notes
The 8chan message board has become synonymous with hate speech. It’s been a go-to forum for mass shooters’ manifestos. It courts devotees of the cultish QAnon conspiracy theory. In August, 8chan was booted from the internet, but now the forum is making a comeback, in spite of the efforts of a dogged group of activists and journalists trying to take it offline permanently.
8chan, the Hate Site That’s Hard to Kill
podcast from beginning of Nov. 2019
S1: There’s this video I can’t stop thinking about a guy posted on YouTube after the Christchurch shootings last spring. An American guy living in the Philippines. His name is Jim Watkins. He stares straight out at the camera. Piano music plays in the background.
S2: Condolences to the victims of the New Zealand shootings. So many pious folks lost because of psychotic rage.
S1: Jim Watkins is an older guy with mutton chops and a mustache. He’s got these bushy eyebrows that are combed up to make little points above his glasses. Videos like this one they’ve become a bit of a ritual for this guy after shootings in Texas and Ohio this summer he was at it again.
S3: What a sad weekend. I just finished watching the president of the United States give his condolences to the families of the victims of the El Paso Wal-Mart shooting and the Dayton Ohio shooting. It is.
S1: His speeches seem like they’re a sick kind of joke. If you could only figure out what the joke is. It is indeed such a sad day and time in the history of the world. The worst sort of monster shoots up random people.
S3: That it is the fact that insanity is obviously involved.
S4: He communicates bizarrely. I don’t really know what’s going on in the dude’s head.
S1: Robert Evans watches these videos as part of his job. He covers extremism on the internet and when that’s your beat Jim Watkins is pretty important because he owns eight Chan the message board that’s become known for being the place mass shooters post their manifestos where conspiracy theorists radicalize Jim Watkins calls his message board the darkest reaches of the Internet.
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S5: He’s the one who was responsible at least for making the new name like the new like model with a chan embrace infamy which it was before the site got taken down and I think he I think he liked that. I was thinking about how I would describe Jim Watkins to. My parents. And like he’s this weirdly powerful guy. But he could only be powerful in this particular moment.
S6: In time. Yeah and I think power has a lot to do with it.
S7: Jim Watkins isn’t apologizing in these videos.
S8: He’s explaining he’s defending saying even if these mass shooters did post their manifestos on his Web site even if they came to each hand to share links to their live streamed terrorism.
S9: Well that’s free speech is I think trying to build a place for himself within kind of the broader right wing maggot Internet so to speak. But he’s not very good at it. Like he’s not a person. If he didn’t own a chair nobody would paying attention to Jim Watkins which I think he knows. But this week he’s been back in the news because his infamous message board is back online.
S10: But not before Robert Evans and a handful of other journalists and activists tried to kick each man off the Internet for good. Today Roberts can explain why his effort failed and what the return of this notorious message board says about why online conspiracies and hate speech are so difficult to control. I’m Mary Harris. You’re listening to what next.
S11: Stick with us HRN this message board chat room online forum.
S1: It’s been in limbo since the summer. The companies who are providing all the services that made each kind of functional Web site they got uncomfortable having it as a customer so they evicted it from their Internet real estate. But a chance still exists safely housed on a bunch of servers waiting to be plugged back in this week.
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S12: Jim Watkins the guy from those weird videos he tried to do just that is h Chan back online.
S13: Can you just characterize what’s happening right now. Because I think people are hearing differing reports.
S14: So right now it is effectively down. It could be backup by the time people hear this podcast. It’s been up and down for days as it gets deep platforms and they find a new place to host. I don’t know what’s going to happen in the long run. I can tell you at the moment I cannot access the site but I was able to yesterday.
S12: Watkins has actually rebranded eight chan. He’s now calling it a coon.
S1: But this new site it still has the same basic DNA from back when h first came to life. It was the fever dream of a precocious and kind of lonely teenager.
S13: Can you tell me the story of how this teenager got involved in creating a tan.
S5: Well Bridget Brennan is you know who’s a very online young man spent a lot of his time on fortune. He was he was someone who the Internet was kind of his primary method of socially of being social.
S13: He has a condition called brittle bone disease which means that he he can’t get around the way many can.
S5: Yeah. And he’s also a very good coder and he took mushrooms one day and was struck with the idea of creating infinite charm as opposed to fortune. And so he built this Web site coded it while he was still tripping on mushrooms and released it to the Internet as sort of a kind of radical free speech Haven because he was kind of you know that was something he was really a believer in at that point and a number of different boards are started including bafflement which is dedicated to harassing people and boxing them and you know coal which becomes this Nazi haven. These are all part of HRN they’re all part of a chain they’re all different there’s other communities there’s like animal discussing communities there’s left wing politics discussions it’s not all toxic or whatever like it’s it’s a it’s a pretty sizable site but the chunks of it that are toxic are the most toxic places on the Internet you know kind of things get more extreme as the years go on and after it’s been up like a year or so because it grows very large it becomes a huge burden to Frederick just to keep online because number one it’s not coded perfectly obviously with the mushrooms when he made it in number two is just it’s a very large site and running a site of that size when you’re a single person is an insurmountable task really. And Jim Watkins buys it and hires him and flies him to the Philippines and you know basically says like I’ll give you this new life working for me if you keep the site up.
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S13: And Jim Watkins and Frederick Brennan they end up living down the street from each other in the Philippines operating this image board.
S5: Yeah yeah yeah. Jim buys him like a pays for his condo or whatever like I was part of the deal like he comes in as an employee and it was his job to maintain the site and Jim would fund everything wondered Fredrick Brennan.
S13: Notice the site taking a turn.
S5: And by the time he was out in 2016 it’s this you know again kind of an extreme in I would say very gross place on the internet but it hasn’t killed anyone and it’s not super relevant.
S1: It took the 2016 presidential race to make each man more relevant. That’s when users began to spread these odd memes they combined anti-Semitic and racist symbols.
S15: Donald Trump eventually retweeted one of them and then each hand became linked with a prolific conspiracy theory. He went on. Can you just give me a picture of what I should see in my head when people talk about Q and Q And on you know it’s the best thing I could say is it’s a cult.
S5: The idea that it started with is this person who is claiming to have Q clearance which is like a high level military top secret type clearance. So it’s a person claiming to be a member of the military establishment in the United States of the intelligence establishment would like access to secret data who claims that basically Donald Trump was elected as the result of the military working secretly to free the United States from this cabal of pedophiles and dark wizards who ran run the U.S. government and they believe Hillary Clinton is one of these pedophile wizards and Barack Obama is it’s very dumb it’s very very very dumb. But it because it’s this online community. Q And on conspiracy theory spreads largely among people never would’ve found a chain otherwise. So a chain is like. Mostly very young very internet kind of savvy. Extremely online people queuing on brings in a lot of older folks a lot of people in their 40s 50s 60s who don’t really get the internet but believe in the conspiracy and latch onto it and there’s a lot of things that make it like a cult. One of them is that because these people’s beliefs get so extreme and are so divorced from reality many of them alienate their families and it gets to a point where a lot of them the only cult social network they have are other people who are into Q went on and sort of like trying to secretly pull apart these these Q drops which is like Q providing these hints on what’s happening next and who’s getting arrested next and whatever. What does a Q drop look like.
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S16: You know it all.
S17: I’ll read you one of the very first one I think was Hillary Clinton will be arrested 745 a.m. 830 a.m. Eesti on Monday the morning of on October 30th 2017 HRC Hillary Clinton extradition already in motion effective yesterday with several countries in case of cross-border run passport approved to be flagged effective 10 30 at 12:00 or 1:00 a.m. expect massive riots organized in defiance and others fleeing the U.S. to occur. Like it’s stuff like that in it usually it’s more cryptic. Early on he was more specific and made specific predictions which obviously didn’t come true. I mean find a more recent one. They’ve just been incredibly cryptic and have focused on sort light in a way that you can kind of interpret them to be anything.
S5: So it becomes this community and they develop their own words for things and their own language essentially which is another key aspect of a cult.
S13: HRN Is the one place where Q will appear right and so it becomes this relationship that’s really important because each man is reliant on cue and on to bring in all these users are talking about people who normally wouldn’t be on this message board and it is the only place on the Internet that you can hear from this particular person male or female we don’t know who they are.
S5: Yeah that’s exactly right and you know. Q anon has gotten more and more dangerous as it’s as it’s gone on these people believe that like it’s kind of an apocalyptic utopian cult they believe that when Trump arrests all these people and the deep states finally defeated that though a lot of them think they’ll get jobs in the CIA but they also believe that like all of their problems are essentially a result of this evil Deep State cabal. So when Trump finally fixes everything like them you know the world will be perfect and they’ll be able to like get their families back and be happy.
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S13: You’re speaking about the people who are engaged with this. I mean you’re characterizing what they’re saying it sounds like nonsense but why do you think this is so appealing to people because these are people with motivations. I mean I just feel like it’s hard because what you’re laying out does sound so extreme in any cult.
S5: If you if you look at like what they believe sounds nuts if you’re not inside the cold but like when you’re inside like part of what makes a cult a cult is that there’s this reality distortion field when you’re inside it and everything’s very internally consistent inside the cult. And when you’re locked into a situation like that it becomes emotionally very dear to you. And the idea of being pulled out of it is one of the most frightening things you can imagine. What’s being said in Cuba unlike the core of the conspiracy is so absurd that sometimes you just have to shake your head at it. But it’s very serious to me and I really worry about these people and I feel for them because they’re not like like any members of a cult. These are not on balance happy people these are people who are missing something in their life and this community provides it for them and that’s very dangerous. People who see danger here they’ve now got their eyes trained on Jim Watkins and in particular on the Internet infrastructure he’s using to try and bring HSN back from limbo EDI owns a number of companies one of them is in t technology made it sort of registers this new domain aid code and it becomes very clear through you know technical things that are happening and being filed that he’s trying to bring a man back under a new name. You know they put up test pages and stuff as they like because it’s quite a process to launch a site of this size with this long big of an archive and whatnot so you can see them sort of doing it. So it’s very obvious to everyone for weeks that he’s trying to bring the site back and there’s this battle that gets fought as he’s trying to host finding different hosts for it and stuff to get them to these platform him and drop him.
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S1: You can deep platform 8 10 evicted from the Internet again and again. But to really get rid of it you’d have to grab its servers. That’s where all the data that makes up this message board lives. So a bunch of activists started hunting around for them and they found them being held by a company called sentry communications just outside of San Francisco. Turns out S.R. his business license had been suspended. They had been paying their taxes. So the activists figured hey this is our in.
S8: They started talking to a California congresswoman asking can you send a letter to the attorney general because if you send a letter law enforcement can seize this company’s servers and H in the wandering homeless Web site inspiring shootings and spreading hate speech it could be booted from the Internet permanently.
S12: But that effort failed. The letter never got sent. The congresswoman’s office got scared.
S5: The reason they don’t send the letter is that they’re worried about getting swatted now getting swatted is when a group of people on the Internet there’s someone they don’t like and they call in false reports to the police. Near that person saying like oh this person has a hostage. This person is domestically abusing her. They have a gun. They’re
S13: doing something illegal and dangerous and literally a SWAT team can come to your door and people have been hurt and killed.
S18: This has killed people before. So there’s a real danger they’re not fearing this for no reason but they don’t do anything because of this fear.
S13: What’s interesting about your article is that you have all these text messages back and forth and it’s very clear that both sides of the conversation understand the stakes involved. The fact that these servers are really critical to a particular kind of hate speech online and everyone’s interested in doing something and then all the sudden the legislative staff member starts saying we need to coordinate with the police because we’re scared about being swatted. And it’s it’s kind of stunning that this person who is theoretically in charge who has some standing and power in the state they themselves are they’re fearful of the people online coming after them.
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S18: Yeah. This is a congress person and their staff. And if anyone should be able to communicate directly with law enforcement to make sure that a swatting doesn’t happen it’s it’s them in the fact that if if again if an elected leader with that kind of protection that kind of communication with law enforcement is afraid of these people. But for that specific reason what hope to the rest of us have of dealing with them. You know a chat may never come back online but this sort of thing will happen again. And these people now know that members of the American government are too scared to intervene. That’s not a good situation in my mind.
S13: The day after the last interaction that this activist had with the legislative staff someone posted on Twitter pictures of h hand servers beyond loaded into a car.
S18: Yeah and driven to we don’t exactly know where. From all we can tell they’re not in California anymore so that chance has been missed. Yeah.
S13: So Jim Watkins Chan 8 Coon had the outsmarted the efforts that so many people have put forward to try to keep them quiet.
S18: Not necessarily. They have in part they’ve certainly outsmarted the government the site is still not up because they’re there they’re being continually deep platforms. It’s possible that we will this battle will be won in terms of like keeping each off line. It’s possible they won’t get back on. But it’s also possible that they’ll come back.
S13: You’re describing this effort on your behalf but then also other people especially Fredrick Brennan who founded the site. It’s not it’s not quite journalistic. It’s more of an activist role. We’re going from company to company being a kind of detective looking for where they might be popping up a server and getting an internet connection and then swarming in and trying to mitigate that.
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S5: Yeah. You know there’s there’s a place for pure objectivity in not getting directly involved with a story. And that place is before 75 people are dead at a certain point it became more important to me to keep a channel off the internet than it did to just continue writing about them and not trying to have any sort of direct impact. I don’t want any more people to get killed. I don’t want any more manifestos to spread and I don’t want this cult to continue to grow because all of these things very much worry me. So we got involved. I got involved in Frederick had been for a while and just trying to keep this thing off the Internet and there were a lot of different people I should say involved with this process.
S13: You know in the article that you wrote just this week you do talk about a different shooting a shooting in Germany and it has all the earmarks of being an H an inspired shooting even though each hand was down while it happened and it just made me wonder is taking down the site. How much will it help. Will it prevent these kind of hate crimes from happening.
S6: There will be more a charge inspired shootings regardless of whether or not the site comes up because there are a number of people who were radicalized on the site before it went down. But almost nobody knows about the whole shooting and that manifesto didn’t really spread the stuff that he was trying to go viral. You know as a result of his shooting none of that spread out into the mainstream culture in the way that any of the other shootings did because there’s not this central place for people to you know defy the shooter as a saint. They call them saints all the people who commit mass shootings from a train. And without that central community the shooting had less of an impact both in terms of the cultural impact it had less of an impact on people’s psyches and it had less of an ability to sort of radicalize other people and inspire other people. And that also means that sort of people will be less inclined to commit these massacres. I think there will be fewer of them because part of what people want to do is feel like they’re part of this movement and if the core the central organizing place of the movement is down then there’s no way to feel like you just feel like a lone person murdering people and that’s not how these people want to feel they don’t want to just be a lone gunman killing people they want to feel like a soldier in a war.
S13: So what do you think is going to happen in the next few weeks. You’ve mentioned how it feels like you’re talking about this Web site starting up like a you’re trying to get the engine to turn over and like it’s up for a few hours then it’s down it’s up it’s down. I mean what do you think happens next here.
S16: I have no idea.
S17: I really have no idea. I think there’s probably a 50 percent chance that they find a way to bring the Web site back online.
S19: If not eventually some other community will provide this thing that a chance provided to its users and this whole process will start over again eventually. This is not going to end anytime soon.
S20: Robert Evans thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Robert Evans is an investigative journalist for Belling cat. He also hosts the podcast behind the bastards for I Heart media.
S8: And that’s the show. What next is produced by Mary Wilson Jason de Leone Daniel Hewett and Mara silvers. Tomorrow in the morning it is what next TBD with Lizzie O’Leary and I’ll be dropping into the feed a little bit later with your impeachment news roundup. Till then I am Mary Harris. Thanks for listening.