I wonder if God even views surrogate/ Dr. made babies as HIS own created beings. Weird to think about in real day to day life, because these kids are humans, but I do ponder what it means in eternity.

This discussion should be a viral one.

Door Dash Babies

It does seem wrong, given his mental health timeline and later she gets all the child support as well

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https://www.reddit.com/r/KUWTKsnark/comments/1vd998x/the_timeline_of_kim_and_kanyes_second_kids/

Apologies if this has been discussed but I can't wrap my head around how bizarre this timeline is:

• Kanye starts spending time in Wyoming to record Ye: late 2017 - June 2018

• Chicago: Born January 2018

• Kanye is spending even more time in Wyoming: September 2018

• Kanye publicly confirms his bipolar diagnosis: 2018

• Psalm: Born May 2019

• Kanye buys a ranch in Wyoming and commits even more time there: November 2019

• Kanye is living separately in Wyoming: early 2020

• Kanye's very public mental health crisis peaks: 2020

• Kim and Kanye get a divorce: Feb 2021

It's pretty clear that by the time Chicago was born, Kanye was spending significant time in Wyoming. People who have careers that allow them to work anywhere don't choose to work so far away from their young and growing family unless things are already deteriorating.

Yet surrogates kept having his biological children while he was thousands of miles away, going through a mental health crisis, and his marriage was deteriorating. It's dehumanising in the most literal sense - in that your reproduction is being decided by your wife, doctors, and surrogates.

To be clear, I'm not a Kanye apologist. He should have exercised his reproductive rights and put a stop to this because they were clearly in no space to have more children. But here we are.

I strongly disagree with the concept of paid surrogacy in general because it allows the elite to use economically vulnerable women as incubators. And in this case, not only did Kim use surrogates, but she also used the semen of a man who wasn't consistently physically present and was definitely not emotionally/mentally present. She was literally using other people's body parts to round out her vision of having four kids. Like I said, it's dehumanising in the most literal sense possible.

It's hard to feel sympathy for Kanye because he's the biggest asshole imaginable, but no one should have their reproduction decided while they're mentally vulnerable. The informed consent in that situation is dubious, and I think it would be a bigger discussion if Kanye wasn't such a dick.

I also believe it would be a much bigger discussion if a woman's eggs were used for surrogacy while she was in active crisis.

It raises a question that I never see discussed - what level of informed, ongoing consent should be required before implanting embryos when one intended parent has a serious mental illness?

I think that entire situation would drive anyone completely over the edge, especially if they were already experiencing mental health challenges. Based on the timeline, it did indeed drive him over the edge.

It's obvious that they're both terrible parents, but the timeline of the last two kids honestly makes me feel sick in how humans (including the kids) were treated like commodities to be acquired as Kim saw fit.

And ultimately those poor kids are the ones paying the price for their abhorrent decisions.

>>24903680

FeatheredFungi

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3d ago

I actually agree OP. And in addition to your bit about the ethics of surrogacy, there has actually been cases/instances where couples decide not to keep their child due to their health. IIRC there was a case in India and Thailand during the 2010s, where two different couples left their baby with the surrogate mother(s) due to them being born with down syndrome. In one of the cases the surrogate mother was 21.

Sorry for going a bit off topic, but surrogacy and reproduction in general, are areas that definitely deserve more discussion.

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anoidciv

OP

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3d ago

India actually banned commercial surrogacy in 2021. One of the biggest catalysts was the 2020 lockdowns, when babies were left at hospitals because the intended parents couldn't get to them and the surrogate carriers couldn't look after them. India's childcare syste

>>24903683

anoidciv

OP

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3d ago

India actually banned commercial surrogacy in 2021. One of the biggest catalysts was the 2020 lockdowns, when babies were left at hospitals because the intended parents couldn't get to them and the surrogate carriers couldn't look after them. India's childcare systems had no support structure to care for the influx of abandoned babies.

Then in the US, there's the horrific treatment Cindy Bi's surrogate received when the pregnancy resulted in a stillbirth. And the Silvia Zhang case where they found the couple to have 20 surrogate children who were being endangered.

>>24903680

>>24903684

The ethics of commercial surrogacy are horrific, and the US is miles behind any other developed country in this regard. It's truly disgusting that it's legal, and it raises some pretty sobering ethical questions about Kim and Kanye's surrogacy journey.

>>24903683

>>24903680

>>24903680

showmewhyyourtop10

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3d ago

>>24903680

People (rightfully) snark on Kanye, but having your DNA implanted into a surrogate while you're actively in the midst of very public mental health crisis is genuinely traumatic.

I hope they did consult him, but it still raises the ethical question of whether someone deep in crisis is equipped to give informed consent.

Kim could have paused implanting the embryos until Kanye was mentally stable enough to be party to rational decision-making, but that obviously didn't fit her preferred timeline.

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DottieHinkle22

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2d ago

Which explains to me why he seems disconnected from the younger children. I have serious questions about what consent he could actually give

So do I & I have never actually read or heard anything about this take / POV, and you are bang on… Kim knowingly kept bringing children into this world when their father was in the midst of a mental health crisis and already overwhelmed and not taking on a proper fatherly role in North & Sant’s lives…and she thought it was ok to bring 2 more children to this world to be cared for primarily by nannies & household staff, what so she could “win” the prize / competition in her head among her sisters for the most children award as well as “hottest”, “richest” etc…was Kanye consulted before each surrogates implanation attempts hopefully to lead to pregnancy or did they just have his “dna” on ice at the lab from when things were “good” way back when and do as they {Kim & Kris) pkeased

https://www.reddit.com/r/KUWTKsnark/comments/1vd998x/the_timeline_of_kim_and_kanyes_second_kids/

>>24903680

anoidciv

OP

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3d ago

It's awful that Khloe has spoken publicly about not feeling connected to Tatum because he was born via surrogate.

That's online forever now, and it's likely he'll discover that long before it's developmentally appropriate for him to understand anything about pregnancy, surrogacy, postpartum emotions, etc.

Like, why would you share something so intensely personal where your child can one day read it? Would you not rather save that conversation for your therapist or to share with your child one day when they're much, much older and able to work through whatever it brings up for them?

These people are so gross.

>>24903680

anoidciv

OP

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3d ago

I've been doing too much pondering 😌

It's vile to intentionally bring two kids into such an unstable environment. And it's also vile to use someone's DNA to implant embryos while they're in the lowest point of their mental health and possibly lack rational decision-making capacity.

It's weird that the timeline doesn't get discussed and Kim's role as the primary decision-maker in all of it doesn't get grilled harder.

They really managed to turn the tide to "poor Kim, look at what she had to deal with", completely glossing over the fact she used a man's DNA to have more of his biological kids while he was unmedicated and in crisis.

If the roles were reversed and a man did that with a woman's eggs, he would be (rightfully) burned at the stake.

>>24903680

What does mental health hold for all of these kids in the future?

>>24903680

anoidciv

OP

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3d ago

Not only did she know the risk, she was the key decision-maker while Kanye was mentally vulnerable.

Without excusing any of Kanye's words/actions, it genuinely would be traumatic for someone to use your DNA to implant embryos while you're unmedicated and in the midst of an extremely public crisis.

She treated him like an anonymous sperm donor, then tossed him to the wolves when his mental health continued to decline. Like, who's mental health wouldn't implode in this kind of situation?

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u/No_Guide_6770 avatar

No_Guide_6770

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3d ago

•

Edited 3d ago

oh agree. I think they used him for everything they could, while knowing for a long time he was mentally ill and would implode. I’m of the firm belief that nonee of the Kardashians would be where they are now, without Kanye. Kim never even got a Vogue cover before him. I think they would be B-list reality show stars with some clothing lines in department stores. and I’m not a Kanye fan, so this isn’t coming from a place of defense/love for him

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shittykity

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2d ago

Profile Badge for the Achievement Top 1% Commenter Top 1% Commenter

Oh yeah he definitely elevated them. At that time he was a consistent top 40 artists running in celeb A+ circles.

>>24903712

Stillsharon

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3d ago

I totally agree with your posts and your points. But how did she have his dna on ice for these surrogacies? Or did he “agree” to the surrogacies when he was in Wyoming? I do not think surrogacies are ethical.

It is human trafficking.

>>24903680

https://www.reddit.com/r/KUWTKsnark/comments/1vd998x/the_timeline_of_kim_and_kanyes_second_kids/

>>24903680

I totally agree with your posts and your points. But how did she have his dna on ice for these surrogacies? Or did he “agree” to the surrogacies when he was in Wyoming? I do not think surrogacies are ethical. It is human trafficking and baby buying and I hate the glazing of rich people who do it, especially celebrities. Kim tried to frame that she had to do it because of her health during the last pregnancy, as if it’s okay that another woman take on the life threatening risks she developed so that a nanny can raise another child for her.

Exactly. While the inability to carry a pregnancy is painful, it doesn't create an entitlement to another woman's reproductive labor.

Surrogacy works by freezing an embryo (maternal egg + paternal sperm) and implanting it into the surrogate. It's the same process as IVF, except in this case the embryo is not implanted into the biological mother.

Embryos can be frozen for literally decades and still be viable, so who's to say when they created the embryo.

Fascinating take OP, and thank you for posting! Makes me think of the parallel situation, Khloe and Trashcan. Their relationship was also clearly a dumpster fire when they impregnated their surrogate, and there doesn't seem to have been any red tape or barriers to their moving ahead with the embryo transfer (at least based on how it was discussed in the show).

And as someone who's in the thick of IVF for kid #2, it really does take a toll on your body for a long, loooong time. I really can't imagine what my "asking price" would be if I were to do this process for someone else.

Fetuses hear the voice and heartbeat of the woman carrying them for 9 months, so even though they don't form an "attachment" in the way we know, they do biologically bond with the person carrying them.

Science literally doesn't know enough about how surrogacy impacts the kids to say it's healthy, so it seems insane to just go "Oh well good luck" and treat them like guinea pigs so rich people can have their 3rd and 4th kid.

"He should have exercised his reproductive rights and put a stop to this…" I don't like Kanye either but saying a vulnerable, mentally unwell person should have known how to do this seems unfair. Kanye absolutely has resources and lawyers but was so unwell at this point. I'm not sure if he had the ability to stop this or the autonomy at the time sadly and I think Kim took advantage of his mental state.

strongly disagree with the concept of paid surrogacy in general because it allows the elite to use economically vulnerable women as incubators.”

Added on to everything you said, Kim with all of that money, chose to create kids in a lab using his DNA which could very well pass on his mental health issues to their children.

khloe was truly pathetic for having another child with that man and putting a woman through pregnancy just for her to first have the son she always wanted and second to have more children with her ugly cheating baby daddy. just crazy work.

MOMAGER probably arraigned this deal?

Dont forget she was paid 1 million dollars by him for each kid she birthed of his in written agreement for some fucking reason

When you put it like that, it sounds so dystopian.

Like at one point I had to remind myself you weren't summarizing an episode of Black Mirror.

I never even thought of it all this way, you make such good points OP, shines a whole new light on the subject

>>24903730

>>24903680

All of the kardashiian jenner kids are FUTURE PRODUCT DEAL FINANCIAL STREAMS.

To have many no matter what is like hedging your bets. Three fail, one hits the jackpot and is the new star money maker product seller

Kim was definitely planning her kids to be the next kris jenner with her kids. She knowingly had these kids even though Kanye was unstable. She learned it from mama 🤷‍♀️. Same with Kylie's son with travis scott. She damn well knew that man is horrible, cheats on her and will never married her but having children benefits these people. For regular people, children will set you back

>>24903680

A dorable_Spinach_924

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1d ago

I really think Kim and Kris were trying to get Kanye into a conservatership during that time as well. I think it’s why he was in Wyoming-to have literal space between him and them. That being said, it makes sense Kim would use their embryos to try and keep Kanye close. Kim has never valued people as more than a commodity-and the proof is in how she used her own husband and kids to try and come about her plans and wealth. I never really saw it in that way until OP pointed out the timeline. It’s really disgusting.

>>24903680

>>24903742

Tow girls

Two boys

Father having mental health crisis.

This borders on full eugenics actually.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KUWTKsnark/comments/1vd998x/the_timeline_of_kim_and_kanyes_second_kids/

Technically, made by a union of man and woman, ordained by God, with eternal ramifications….

Only North is Kanye’s biological child.

>>24903680

>>24903680

https://www.reddit.com/r/KUWTKsnark/

>>24903680

>>24903680

>>24903775

Yuck