https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-michael-vickers-talks-with-michael-morell-on-intelligence-matters-podcast/
https://web.archive.org/save/https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-michael-vickers-talks-with-michael-morell-on-intelligence-matters-podcast/
Transcript: Michael Vickers talks with Michael Morell on "Intelligence Matters" podcast
screenshot of first few paras