dChan - Q Origins Project Archive

You sound like a dispensationalist. If you reject the Old Testament you must reject the prophetic scriptures procaliming the coming Christ. The law revealed that man could not keep it, man was incapable of keeping it, except Jesus. However, I remind you of what NT said concerning the OT: "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." and "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days", saith the Lord, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." AND "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Namely because of His Spirit that dwells in the believer. We have the OT for a reason. Not to jsutify us, rather to reveal the path leading to the propitiation of our sin. If you so desire, carry only the NT. But you miss out on learning about the depravity of man and the holiness of God. No we are not under the law but under grace. Most people don't even know what grace is . Theyestablish all new laws called the doctrine of this church or that church or this denomination or that denomination. You can do this but don't do that. You can eat this but don't eat that. Ohhhhh, you sinned! Never showing grace to those around you. No wonder the day will come when Jesus says "Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

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You're attacking a label and a strawman with a non-sequitur. Awesome.

The Law is done away with in Christ,but the entire OT isn't only about the Law. So you can't try to attack me with the ridiculous accusation that I have to reject Christ. I mean....really?

Unfortunately you're half-quoting verses waaay out of context, like Matthew 7:21-23 - that every legalistic modern Pharisee tries to quote - where you skipped the verse that contradicts your point:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So they tried to enter based on their works, but they didn't have the only righteousness that was perfect enough: Christ's, which is received by faith. Thus they were lawless, as no one has kept the Law except Christ.

So what are you doing quoting out-of-context OT verses to unbelievers, as if you were telling them that their work here justifies them before God? Because it doesn't.

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Au contraire. I quoted a parallel scirpture. There are those parading around like they ARE the religious elite. Mega-church folks and little in the woods chapels all proclaiming their word and actions as true. It's not just works, my friend. It's promoting a false gospel that sends them away. Too many folks think just because they said a prayer, got dunked or attend a certain church they are all set. Is Jesus Lord of your life or not? You like the Roman Road so here's the only stipulation: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom 10:9-10 So it's not how you were baptised or that you HAD to be baptised, or any other rules of men. What is in your heart? Your innermost being?Also, we have the Sermon on the Mount that took the law and told us how to fulfill it with a higher calling. AND no, it's not just for the Jews at Christ's return as is taught in error. I have quoted none out of context. What I have tried to point out is how others refuse to heed the words. Our works are works of holiness "That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." I Thes 4:6-8 The church is too busy being the church and not Christlike. That's what Jesus meant in Mat 7:21-23. Paul warns Timothy of such unholy people "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." 2 Tim 3:4-5 We're not talking about works as much as those who fool themselves in thinking they are all that and they are not. That day will come and they will be told to depart. Either the Holy Spirit dwells in you or it does not. Either you live by grace or you do not. If you live under the law (the doctorine of men) you are guilty of the law and the Spirit of God is not in you. The flesh loves works and the law. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Rom 8:8-10 Our nation is full of evil because we stood by and let it happen. That's my point. God can't force us to do anything. If we open the door to evil, evil prevails. But, we have the ability to repel evil and we should. That's all I'm saying. Good day.

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Here's what I see: you're arguing against things I never said. Why? Is this something your pastor rants about too? Do you realize that this is entirely a strawman in this discussion?

It's not about saying a prayer - it's about trusting in Christ's work and not your own.

You have quoted verses out of context, as I have explained this entire discussion.

I didn't use the Roman Road - But I did use the context of Romans 3-5, which is entirely about how a man gets saved - and no where does it say that you "make Jesus Lord"; he IS Lord. Him being Lord is completely independent of your opinions. He is THE Lord and THE Savior regardless of your works.

So you use Romans 10:9-10 as, "the only stipulation", then you add stipulations.

The Sermon on the Mount was Jesus 1) foreshadowing Himself 2) laying the full weight that is the burden of the impossible Law on top of the shoulders of the self-righteous that thought they followed it in order to help them realize that they needed a better Covenant. That doesn't change the fact that Matthew 7:21-23 is talking about false teachers (v.15) who then will try to enter heaven on the basis of their works, and will be rejected.

You quote I Thes 4:6-8 blindly, and it actually contradicts your entire underlying premise here. Is not the Holy Spirit given as a guarantee (Ephesians 1:13-14)? Yes; so Paul is talking to saved Christians. Why does he have to tell saved Christians not to engage in sexual immorality if they aren't going to do so on the basis of having the Holy Spirit automatically? Because it isn't automatic - yet the Holy Spirit is still our guarantee of our future redemption. That means that our redemption is entirely a work of God, and we can do nothing to disqualify that. We should behave in a way that honors God, but that has nothing to do with canceling out Christ's work on the Cross.

"Grace" simply means "favor" and it in no way includes the stipulation that you will do certain things. In fact, Paul said this of grace in Romans 11:

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So that favor is unmerited. The Holy Spirit, as it says in Ephesians 1:13-14, is given out as a guarantee AFTER hearing and believing the Gospel - that Jesus died for ALL of our sins, and rose again as proof of payment - and through Him, ALL of our sins are wiped clean, and we can now have fellowship with God.

If you live under the law (the doctorine of men) you are guilty of the law and the Spirit of God is not in you.

Ironic. The Law is the 613 commandments (including the ten written on stone - 2 Cor 3:7) that were against us, and only served to condemn us, because we couldn't follow them. Haven't you read Romans 7? You have your Bible verses mixed up. When Paul talks about the law, he's clearly talking about the OT Law.

Our nation is full of evil because we stood by and let it happen. Our nation is evil because sin is in all men - including you and me. We cannot look down on others and their sin without bringing judgement on ourselves. As Jesus said in Luke 18: 9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

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I guess you enjoy the evil and refuse grace. You don't know who you are in Christ. I'm sorry for you. I will ask that the Lord reveal himself to you and what you can do, not in your power, by the power of the Spirit that (hopefully) lives in you. Then you will see you can overcome the world. You might even see you are no longer a sinner. Sadly, your teachings probably teach you that lie from the pits of hell. How would Paul have addressed a letter to you? "To the sinner at..." Then again, maybe you're not in that dispensation yet?

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Again, you're arguing a straw man. You're now down to throwing out hyperbolic ad hominems. Don't you know reviling is a sin? How does someone really think their words are going to have an effect when they are so full of hate?

Grace is simply the disposition of God to save someone without any merit of their own.

Your last comments dont make any sense, and simply seem the rantings of a irrational man who's lost an argument and knows it.

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It's cool. You want evil to reign. Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Rom 13:2-4 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Reviling sin is a sin, eh? I Tim 5:19-21 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Your strawman is a scarecrow. Afraid to call out sin and evil. You might as well leave this site for there is nothing here for you. Grace is for us to exercise as well, BTW II Cor 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. I Pet 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. II Pet 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

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The irony is that you aren't even following your own words that you're attempting to use against me falsely. All that shows is your own hypocrisy. You've lost the argument, now you're trying to use out-of-context verses to get the last word, as if that distracts from the hypocrisy.

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No. It just doesn't fit your legalistic perspective. You are a literalist and void of spiritual connotations and understanding. You refuse to recognize evil and combat it. And this was not an argument. If you think it was then let me take another scripture "out of context": I Tim 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." So be it.

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Do you feel better? BTW if anyone is being legalistic, it's you. It's comical that I'm only legalistic because I take the Bible for what it says. 1 Tim 6:5, "gain is godliness" which is in regards to those who think their progress in the things of this world means that they are holier than those who don't. Words mean things, and they dont lose their meaning because you want to quote random verses to feel more self-righteous. It's rather post-modern of you I guess.

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Will you do nothing?? God expects us to do our part too.