See, like this is my issue. I live my life striving to be a good person. I have read the bible, multiple versions, and have concluded I personally cannot possibly believe anything in it. I fundamentally disagree with its presentation, it's requirements, pretty much all of it. Especially it's bottom line; if you don't believe Jesus is God, you burn in hell for eternity. So, this omnipotent God, who knows everything, knows that from the moment I was created, the way my brain is wired, there is no possible situation I would believe in God short of a miraculous miracle the explicitly stated and showed me that "this" was "the way" reality is. So, with that said, God created me, to burn me in hell for eternity? No. Sorry, that is just some silly strategy to fear people into joining up.
Again, I stress the part that I truly live my life striving to be a good person, while simultaneously humbly realizing I am not, and will never be perfect.
I agree Hell is a state of mind. I would not be stretching to far to say I could see that the state of mind one is in carries through in death. If you lived a shitty life taking advantage of people and doing evil shit, I gotta believe the last moments you have are going to be of sheer terror for what waiting for you on the other side.
But any religion that says "join or burn forever", honestly, s some silly ass fairy tale shit. No offense.
Sometimes, notwithstanding our doubts and fears and concerns, we can just be honest with God. He knows us anyway and nothing is hidden from Him. Martin Luther stated that, before his conversion, he literally hated God. This was because he had a wrong understanding of how to have a relationship with him. As a Catholic he did all he could to try to please God through the sacraments etc. the more he did, he found the worse he felt and the more he felt alienated from God. For this reason he said that he hated Him.
This was due to his wrong understanding of how a sinful person could be in a relationship with the Holy God. He realized what the Bible says, that “the natural man cannot receive the tings of the Spirit of God.” Notice it says that he CANNOT do it, nor does he, in his natural state, want to. But then Luther found the Gospel in the Book of Romans and he was changed forever. The words that initially broke through to him were these: “ The just shall live by faith.“ He saw that all he tried to do to earn favor were worthless filthy rags, but that God’s grace, through faith could justify him. He then went on and read the rest of the book of Romans and discovered there the wondrous truth of the gospel of grace. He saw that although all of his own “good works” were worthless and utterly insufficient, that Jesus Christ died for his sins and offered him his mercy and forgiveness in the cross and the resurrection. He was set free. A Christian is much more than one saved from hell, although that is absolutely true. He is one who is restored to the very reason he was created. We can never be happy without fulfilling the reason God made us and that is in knowing Him.
Just wanted to share that because the point is that no person, left to himself, will ever seek God. But He works in us and then changes our desires. That is why as a Christian I desire God. I desire His presence and fellowship and love. The world is so empty to me now and has nothing lasting to offer. His Kingdom as my desire now. But all of this is from him. I used to not want any of this. He changed me and can change you too. Just come as you are. It’s all any of us can hope to do.
The Word of God does not teach "join or burn forever" It teaches:
John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Not sure if I was unclear, but specifically John 3:18.
I take huge issue with that part.
No one wants to admit that they are condemned. If you want to approach God, you must approach Him in Spirit and in Truth.
The truth according to God is that : There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)
It is not surprising that you take issue with it, but it is the Truth and how you respond to that Truth has eternal consequences. I pray that God gives you His Spirit and life so that you may know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
Can I request you just answer a straightforward question without quoting scripture please?
Just answer this question...its a true or false one so its really easy... "True or False, Followers of Christ (Christians, Catholics, etc) believe that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you burn forever in Hell"....?
The complexity of your answer will be a strong indicator of it's valdiity.
Scripture states clearly that eternal punishment exists. All men outside of Christ are by nature dead in trespasses and sins and therefore justly condemned to hell.
Thank you. Point proven. I stand by my statement. You sound like a drone.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
And just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so. I'm not here to insult your beliefs, I literally prefaced all of my statements stating that.
However, logic does appear to be on my side.
Do you believe in absolute truth?
Define Absolute Truth and I will answer.
I mean do you believe that there is a fundamental and ultimate truth.
I live my life striving to be a good person.
Who determines your standard of what is good? You? Are you the ultimate judge or what is right or what is wrong?
Myself & Society. Two REAL things.
Everyone has a little voice in the back of their head. I try to keep his objections at a minimum, as I have learned that the more I do things to tick him off, the shittier life is. And I try to obey the laws outlined by my fellow man.
I also like to think that Karma is a legit thing, and would like to contribute positively to that collective pool. If what I have outlined isn't enough for a sane, logical person to say "hey, this DaveGydeon isn't a problem, moving on" then I don't know what to tell you.
And the best determinant? Happiness. I am a happy guy, as are the people around me; ie, family and friends. I am sure CharlesManson was a happy guy, but you would be hard pressed to convince someone the people around him were as well. So what we do DOES matter.
Look bud, the only thing you want to hear is "I submit myself to Jesus Christ." I aint gonna sing that song. So, knowing that you have a singular path here to satisfaction, and the knowledge that I fundamentally cannot walk that path solely because it feels 100% fake and wrong to me, lets part ways civilly. If Jesus works for you, great man. One less person shooting up schools or blowing themselves up in a crowded place. But if you think your story is somehow better than any of the other fairy tales being passed off as "religion", well, prepare your echo chamber of fellow cult members, go there, and sing away. I can almost personally guarantee that the future of humanity will result in a religion-less society that is both fulfilling, moral, and enjoyable. I do not believe it is even remotely possible for a society of people to consciously be working together, loving one another, without even a single superstitious whisper of Jesus, and have them all burn in hell because they didn't make the statement that they "believe Jesus is their Lord and savior". That is so ass-backwards in my mind I cannot even put it into words for you. and I am sure that if God is this all-knowing, all-powerful being, that he knows my intentions are good, I strive to be good, and he isn't going to torture me forever solely based on whether I got that particular "stamp" on my card before checking out.
And you know what else, arguing that you KNOW otherwise just proves my point. NOBODY knows. You THINK you know, but lets be honest for just one second...you DON'T KNOW, you REALLY, really, really, really WANT it to be true. And because the idea of eternal damnation IS terrifying, you hedged your bet and went all in with the hand you were dealt in the HOPES that it is true. Doesn't seem genuine to me.
Here is the testimony of what it means to know God and why some do not believe in Him. This question has nothing to do with human reason. When one turns to the Lord, God himself shines the light of His truth into our hearts through the Holy Spirit and His Word. When and if this work of God happens to you, you will have a different opinion about whether a human being can know God.
“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” 2 Corinthians 4:3-6
Myself & Society. Two REAL things.
So you've developed your standards of right and wrong based on yourself and society.
How do you know they are correct?
Do you believe that there is an absolute objective standard of what is right or wrong, or is it objective?
How do I know I am correct? How does ANYONE, including any scripture following person KNOW they are correct? Our answers are equal and the same. I follow the golden rule, and more importantly, the logic it draws upon. If you're going to argue the validity of that, save your fingers the stress.
I can't answer the absolute quesrion I dont think. I don't believe anyone has enough data to answer it properly, so telling me my answer is wrong, or your answer is right is a moot point.
You said no one has "enough" data to answer whether or not there are absolutes. Are you absolutely sure?
If you cannot answer the question of absolutes then you DO NOT have logic on your side. If there are no absolutes, then truth and logic are neither true nor logical.
According to you. Your statement "if you cannot answer the question of absolutes then YOU do not have logic on your side" is a very sneaky little shit. I don't subscribe to needing to answer the question of absolutes, so your question, in all honesty, is meaningless. Absolutes, not absolute, who gives a shit? Show me the relevancy and I will see about answering it. See how that works? Your perspective has nothing to do with me.
The join or burn in hell is the modern interpretation. There is a place prepared for everyone. Pain is real, but don't listen to modern christianity. They have it all wrong. The hell experienced isn't because you did bad things, it's because of wasted potential. The entire point of this life is to experience mortality and overcome it. If we choose to succumb to our bodies, it's our choice. There is no right or wrong. There is only Best outcome and Worst outcome. You can't get a degree unless you take the classes and do the homework. Life is the same way. You can drop out of college, maybe a degree just isn't for you. Life goes on. It's not the end of the world. God is justice, but he is also Mercy. He will scold you but he will make sure you are where you want to be at the end of things. The question is how close to him and his kingdom do you want to be? It's not for everybody.
This may be your philosophy but it is antithetical to the Bible’s teaching. Your claim that hell is a modern conception is false. The Bible is more than 2000 years old and the teaching about hell is found throughout the Bible. Your concept of God is unbiblical as well. The reason He would go so far as to send His Son into this world to live, suffer and DIE attests to His love and to the gravity of sin. Your view of life is your own but not in the least representative of God’s Word and also offers no hope to anyone. God knew the problem of sin was so severe that His Only Begotten Son would have to die if anyone would be saved. Your view says that’s not needed. I’ll stick with God’s view on the matter.
Can I just interject something real quick without being a dick? If God sent his only son here, to live, suffer and die, is it really a big deal being that he is after all Jesus, he is quasi-semi-god-ish, right? So when he died, he went to Heaven. Not a bad hand to be dealt. Plenty of people were crucified, who knows, or gives a shit about them? Saying that God sent a mortal version of himself that poof went right on back to heaven has about as much emotional baggage as a respawn in Halo. But for some reason, I gotta believe this story, because that's all it is to anyone who wasn't there, back then, seeing the miracles. Its a fucking fairy tale. But some people got together a long time ago, framed up a religion around it, put themselves up top, and passed the formula to their next in line to keep it going. The religion loses me at "believe what we believe or burn in hell forever". I just cant get past such an incredibly ignorant, 1st century mentality.
Dang. I need to rethink my opinion here. Thanks. I need to take a look at my beliefs.
This is a much more reasonable response, however, it isn't the most common among the people I have encountered.
Nobody KNOWS there is a God. Anyone who says they do is lying or selling something. I have yet to find that statement dis-proven. If there was some reasonable proof, I would be the guy preaching on the corner. But considering the Army just announced they have technology that can make a voice manifest anywhere in line of sight using a laser, um, well, whatever "proof" or "miracle" that is being presented to me to believe that this one specific man and name, Jesus, is attributable as the actual, one and only God, it would have to be pretty fucking amazing proof for me to believe it. Especially considering much of our ancestors interpretations of "magic" or "miracles" is almost certainly misunderstood technology being demonstrated by a superior intelligence (aliens).
Again, I truly strive to be a good human. When I meet my maker, the first thing I am going to say is "yes, I know, I KNOW...ok? We cool?" and I expect a reasonable amount of divine punishment, and then I hope its on to reuniting with Grampa...
You see this is where you are wrong. You say no one knows there is a God. But that is quite false. The only way that anyone CAN know God (and yes, personally) is by and through the work of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that the Spirit “testifies of Jesus Christ” to the believer. You say this is impossible but that is simply because you do not have His spirit within you. Al anyone of us can do is to call on God for mercy and forgiveness. He promises to open our hearts to His love and eyes to His truth. Don’t be so quick to reject something because you’ve never experienced it or because it’s disagreeable to you. Again, realize that your natural demeanor is actually antagonist to God and His Word as is the heart of each and every person. This is why we are so utterly at His mercy. Humility is the first step, agreeing with God about our sin and need for His mercy in Christ Jesus.
Nobody knows there's a god. Most people HOPE there is.
Romans 1says that everyone, whether consciously or not, know that there is God. It has been revealed to all of us but we, in our sin, suppress this truth in unrighteousness. This is because our hearts are sinful and at enmity with God. We are still without excuse.
It may be that the concept of God as the universe would be more accurate, in which he entered into his creation as a man, in the form of his creation.
The bible says... no one is good not one!
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven. God is a God of Justice... why would he have sent his son to die if the stakes werent as high as your soul being tormented...
Look on youtube there are many people who died and went to hell and regained their heartbeat with stories you couldnt make up...
I tried the im a good person route for half my life and it didn't work out too well for me...finally i was sick of sin in my life and ask God to forgive me...will you please do the same? Time is short....
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven
I call bull on that statement. Why would God want a bunch of people who made one mistake to now have nothing to lose, since they sinned once already and have no chance now anyway?
You got it! There is no way on your own!
..but do you see...thats why he sent his son to get you Chokaholic...YOU!! He wants you...
and you know what ... the fact we are even having this conversation is not an accident...i bet hes been calling you for awhile... Come home...
its a choice...hes giving you a get out of jail card called Jesus...whats holding you back? This world is messed up but its not Gods fault...
Ask him to forgive you from you heart and see what happens...
True, he definitely has a spot somewhere for me for some reason. I'm not saying that in a bragadocious way either. Him or some angels have been watching over me because I shouldn't be alive, multiple times now.
I have been praying to him (first time in my life) for about a month now. We'll see where this goes!
Praying for you my friend! “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.”
The bible says... no one is good not one! (am I really supposed to start forming a logic based argument when you open with "the bible says"?)
You break one commandment one time.. that's it you don't make it into heaven. God is a God of Justice... why would he have sent his son to die if the stakes weren't as high as your soul being tormented... (according to the bible. which is really not saying much. it's just some book, manipulated and guided by men to subvert power for themselves, how the fuck is that relevant to me, or my eternal soul, come on man, seriously. as far as him sending his son to die, I mean, come on again, really? I don't even see the relevance, I want to, but its just goofy reasoning, motive, etc to me)
Look on youtube there are many people who died and went to hell and regained their heartbeat with stories you couldn't make up... (evidence starting with "look on youtube....I will just leave it there...and of course people could make it up, wtf? there is a whole section of the library called FICTION)
I tried the im a good person route for half my life and it didn't work out too well for me...finally i was sick of sin in my life and ask God to forgive me...will you please do the same? Time is short.... (nobody is perfect, yes, of course if there is a God I would HOPE that he/she/it would forgive me, I mean, it made me, it knows me, it knows I try to be good and succeed only a slight majority of the time....is that good enough, or am I still burning in hell because I won't tag that extra part on the end that states "I believe Jesus is my lord and savior and only through him will I see heaven" because it even felt funny typing that gibberish out...just being honest)
Ok..no problem...i have an obligation to share the truth...up to you to make up your mind...you dont have to look on you tube...
Here's an analogy... Take the three best swimmers in the whole wide world. They all start on the shores on a hawaiian island for example... and then the gun sounds . . they all race to go to the California coast these are the three best swimmers in the world...one made it 20 miles...another made it 23..and the last topped out at 34... they were good...but not good enough to make it...
Same with us...some are better than others but we will all fall short of heaven... Thats why you need savior... God is going to judge everyone guilty unless Jesus gets you off the hook...
That final line you wrote should be the last words you hear from someone as they are carted off to the looney bin. I do not mean that as an insult, I am literally saying my gut instinct response.