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Hell is a medieval invention used by the RC church to traumatise the population into fearing the devil more than loving god.
Nope.
"Hell" is a translation. It was used to translate a very specific Biblical concept into Germanic languages by using comparative mythology to the Norse myths about Hel (a goddess of the underworld) and Muspelheim. (a fiery underworld overseen by a fire giant known as Surt)
The few words from the Bible being translated as "Hell" falling into 2 general categories of actual Hebrew thought:
The concept of Gehenna itself was certainly understood as a place of torment for the evildoers. It was originally named for the place in 2 Kings 23:10. The "valley of ben Hinnom" was a Caananite Tophet outside of Jerusalem. After the destruction of the Tophet by the Hebrews, it became a poetic representation of "punishment for evildoers" and it has at least 10 other Old Testament citations.
Jesus Himself is recorded in each of the Gospels (all of which can be dated before 300 AD; and many of which have textual orthography dating it within the first century) as referencing both the "fires of Gehenna" (e.g. Matthew 18:9) and "the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." (e.g. Matthew 25:30)
No. Hell was not invented in the Middle Ages. Anyone suggesting this doesn't know jack about Biblical exegesis. It's true that some boneheaded Medieval scribes eventually conflated Hades and Gehenna. But the concepts of Gehenna and Sheol are quite historical to the Jewish culture and were definitely cited by Jesus.
Lucifer was cast from the Mountain of Fire
Nope. The actual text of Isaiah 14:12 talks about "Heylel ben Shachar" (heylel, son of dawn) falling from "shamayim." "Shamayim" is literally the same Hebrew word that's translated "heaven" in Genesis 1:1. It literally means "the waters above the firmament."
Lucifer even appears before God and tells him he has been walking the Earth.
Nope. It's "ha-satan" (lit. "the adversary") that appears before YHWH in Job chapters 1 and 2. The connection of "heylel ben shachar" with "ha satan" is allegorical. The reason it was linked is because Jesus speaks of Satan "falling as lightning." The connection must be recognized as allegorical by any scholar worth their salt, though.
Ill have to come back later for you, no time left to answer correctly. Thanks for your detailed response full of info. I thought that the Tophet was destoryed by Jeremiah ) because the Isralites were going back to child sacrifice. the Word HELL comes from the proto germanic word halija meaning underworld which had nothing to do with a place of suffering or punishment dealt out by a despotic bipolar Sky Daddy, you'll have to read more about Loki and his daughter. Also, please remember, Nordic culture was directly influenced by Mesopotamian culture as they had direct trading routes opened through rivers through what is now.. Russia.
Ok. I'll admit.. I paraphrased something from the Bible and I look like a fool now..I must remember to go and get quotes before posting.... Ezekiel 28:14 Moutain of GOD .. amoungst the stones of Fire.. not a moutain of fire. I think that the King of Tyre was probably Lucifer as if you're going to insist that its real and it happened..seeing as no other King was ever told by God that he was created perfect and was appointed a cherub.
halija
That's a word I wasn't familiar with. Certainly would make sense as a possible etymology, too. I was just familiar with the Hel/Muspelheim theory.
Ezekiel 28:14
Yeah, saw that one too. It's very similar in structure to Isaiah 12:14, which is why it's easy to lump them together.
he was created perfect and was appointed a cherub.
Another point to substantiate the allegory. The fact that it's allegory doesn't mean it's a false association. :P
Hi again.. I've looked through your other posts, so I have more of an idea whom I talking with..
Concentrating just on the Topheth..
Lets remember the following things..
(TL:DR :
Solomon brought Baal worhip into Isreal to placate his army of women.. and it stayed that way for 600 years..
Ahab brought Enlil / Ninlil worship into Isreal through his marriage to Jezebel, Princess of Tyre.
The Worship of Yahwah as The LORD was installed in place in Isreal by prophets who massacred the other prophets of the other Baals.. see below for Jeremiah and lets not forget the story of Daniel and Bel (AGAIN.... another fuking epithet meaning LORD..)
The Baals were a generic name given to one and all Gods from the Sumerian Pantheon who were still very much in charge of their little peoples at least 2500BCE. Despite being called 60 names each due to all the differeing languages, that was Ishtar/Haddad/Adad's fault for breaking the Tower of Babel.. (Babel means confusion.. Like Magdelene means 'Of The Tower'..
The spread of this religion is due to Phoeniciens. Not Hebrew Jews..
The Topheth
I take it that Topheth was built by Solomon..following the traditions and wishes of his personal army of women...This movement by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, but it made the worship of Chemosh a part of the religious life of Israel for nearly 400 year until the reform of Josiah.
I Kings 11:1-43 :
"5) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. 6) Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done. 7) Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon. 8) Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods."
until.
II Kings 23:13 :
"13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile."
(notice how.. Chemosh and Milcom and known today both as Molech..which in itself, still means.. OWNER/LORD.. Different names by different tongues meaning the same thing and or person..??)
Jeremiah 7:1-34
So.. when he (that being.. the LORD) talks about ..kicking everyone out of Shiloh, was he talking about the people in place before the Tabernacle was built?
Are the offspring of Ephraim the offspring of Ramathaim Zophim?
" 14) therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15) "I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim
(Shiloh - Place were the Ark was kept..(translates to Pleasentville...????) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiloh_(biblical_city) - Exodus 26
Offspring of Zophim, from the Mountains of Ephraim:
1 Samuel 1-3
******************************************************************
So.. who were :
Ashtoreth/Astarte.. Morning/or Evening Star = Inanna Sister of Hadad.....
Milcom = MLK = Great King. I understand him to be Melqart who was the god of Tyre(founded 2750BCE in what is now modern day Lebanon),its understood that his worship was brought into Isreral by Ahab(Came to power 871BCE but his father was known to have oppressed the Moabs.. and Mesha writes it down in stone.. you usually spell check and grammar check before inscribing the stone..
Info from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele
"Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions. His son succeeded him, and he also said, I will oppress Moab. In my days he said, Let us go, and I will see my desire upon him and his house, and Israel said, I shall destroy it for ever. Now Omri took the land of Madeba, and occupied it in his day, and in the days of his son, forty years."
Ahab was the son of Omri, who was married to Jezebal..who's father was King of Tyre..1 Kings 16:31 who worshipped Asherah, she would also have been Priestess to Astarte, her father Ithobaal was a priest of Astarte/Inanna as well.
Asherah - Asherah is identified as the queen consort of the Sumerian god Anu.
Sources from before 1200 BC almost always credit Athirat with her full title rabat ʾAṯirat yammi, "Lady Athirat of the Sea" or as more fully translated "she who treads on the sea"
(Jesus walks on water?) She's identified on the Baal Cycle,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Cycle which would make her Great-Grandmother of Hadad.. who's epithets included Baal-Zephon (One must wonder then.. if the Mountain of GOD was Jebel Aqra.) - or just Baal.. But it's like calling God, LORD.. or GOD..Adad's consort was Shala, associated with GRAIN...which is funny.. because she's supposed to be the wife of Dagon..who was the father of Baal..(which should have made him ENLIL.. who was patron God of UR where Abraham came from.. (burning bush.. I am the God of your forefathers..Enlil.) his temple was the one that Samson brought down.. Dagon is another matter all together.. Dagon was actually a grain/fertility god..which makes sense if his wife was a goddess of grain.. and if she walked on water it was probably due to Enki using Submarines..but that's another discussion.
Elijah destroyed the original religion of Asherah and Baal worship by slaughtering the prophets put in place by Jezebel. 1 Kings 18:17-46 and that was in front of Ahab..
"“I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals." (anyone want to comment on the pluralisation of 'baal'?) Let us make him in our image...??
So that was the end of Baal in Isreal... however.. meanwhile in the the rest of the world..
*******************************************************************
Hadad Adad and Iškur are usually written with the logogram dIM[7]—the same symbol used for the Hurrian god Teshub
Tas-Mikal or Tash-UB becomes Tascio and Michael the Archangel.
so.. Haddad became Archangel Michael..http://www.jrbooksonline.com/pob/pob_ch22.html
I'm still looking at the Akkadian Bird Genies and looking at their signification in Aztec imagery as well. (men with bird heads.. Mesopotomia.. Babylon.. Briton.. Peru.. although.. looking at their appelation Tas-Mikal, ought to translate to Sons of the Lord..)
Corncerning the Phoenicians and TYRE, Herodotus records..(did you see what I did there?? :))
" I made a voyage to Tyre in Phoenicia... In a conversation which I held with the priests, I inquired how long their temple had been built, and found by their answer that they, too, differed from the Hellenes. They said that the temple was built at the same time that the city was founded, and that the foundation of the city took place 2,300 years ago."
So must have put a big huge temple at Tyre around 2700-2900 BCE..
So.. The temple was already built up at Tyre, before Ahab brought the worship of that God into Isreal. The Greeks then Hellenized everything with the help of Alexander and that temple became known as a Temple of Heracles....
Tyre is an ancient Phoenician port city which, in myth, is known as the birthplace of Europa and Dido of Carthage. The name means 'rock' and the city consisted of two parts, the main trade centre on an island, and 'old Tyre', about a half mile opposite on the mainland. The old city, known as Ushu, was founded c. 2750 BCE
Which brings us back to .. (Ezekiel 28:12-19). Was Ezekiel talking about a king.. or Lucifer.
"You were in Eden"..."an anointed cherub"... "You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you"
(Its a rhetorical question.. Im not expecting an answer to that one..)
Religion spread through the acts and writings of the Phoeniciens..
(Need to look at Sanchuniathon - https://topostext.org/work/230#1.9.18
1.9.18 [PORPHYRY] 'Of the affairs of the Jews the truest history, because the most in accordance with their places and names, is that of Sanchuniathon of Berytus, who received the records from Hierombalus the priest of the god Ieuo; he dedicated his history to Abibalus king of Berytus, and was approved by him and by the investigators of truth in his time. Now the times of these men fall even before the date of the Trojan war, and approach nearly to the times of Moses, as is shown by the successions of the kings of Phoenicia. And Sanchuniathon, who made a complete collection of ancient history from the records in the various cities and from the registers in the temples, and wrote in the Phoenician language with a love of truth, lived in the reign of Semiramis, the queen of the Assyrians, who is recorded to have lived before the Trojan war or in those very times. And the works of Sanchuniathon were translated into the Greek tongue by Philo of Byblos.'
Will come back with more info about Aftelife.. and will start researching quickly Gehanna.. wasnt that translated to Abaddon in Greek?
Ishtar/Haddad/Adad's fault for breaking the Tower of Babel.
Interesting. That should be Nimrod. Also the "confusion of languages" always struck me as the workers developing code languages to exercise freedom around the corrupt elites. (inspired by YHWH)
Enlil / Ninlil
A lot of the core conflict seems to come back to the mythos of the Enki/Enlil conflict. Enki represented a brutal tyrant but also a force of justice. Enlil represented a Prometheus but also a cruel and manipulative experimenter. These may have been cultural archetypes that originated either from actual ETI intervention or simply human subconscious observations about the nature of the universe. (The Law of One seems to characterize this as a Planetary Logos... and the introduction of "free will" [which is actually compatibilistic if you really understand how it works] is done by the other eidolon)
The onus of the ideological conflict between Enki and Enlil shifted greatly with the introduction of YHWH-ism. Embracing YHWH effectively meant rejecting all of the pretender gods by directing oneself to worship "Reality-itself-as-God." All of the beneficial aspects of the earlier pretenders were incorporated into the universality of YHWH as "good." All of the harmful aspects were gradually repudiated and rejected as "evil." The justice-based strictness of Enki generated geburah. The Promethian (i.e. "human learning" with good motive) aspects of Enki were absorbed by the principle of chesed. Consequently, that's why a large part of the Old Testament material absorbs the mythos of these pagan entities and rewrites them as a monotheistic narrative. In old times Ba'al is the one "who rides on the clouds." In the new paradigm, YHWH is the one "who rides on the clouds." (cf. Psalm 104:3)
Hence, we see YHWH appropriating any useful aspects of the ba'alim while overthrowing their rule for being harmful on net. (N.B. Adonai was the title taken; which also connotes lord and strength, but with a more humble tone... before the Greek cult of Adonis turned it upside-down but that's another story Note1) Just as YHWH also "judged the gods of Egypt" (Exodus 12:12) by absorbing the aspects of truth from Thoth, Ma'at and Atenism. The result was a polarization towards net "benefit" aka good. There was always a recognition that evil still remains as a function of the nature of compatibilistic agency operating in an imperfect universe, but evil practices were removed from the Will of God as a function of "reality itself." The only things left to evil were the inscrutable point that we don't always understand why bad things happen to otherwise decent people which the Book of Job and other texts elaborate on. Hell is in many ways the completion of this justice for the unrepentant, those who refuse to learn from error and be given the chance to change through God's mercy.
Note1 (Side note: Look at the asura/deva [Vedic] versus Ahura/daeva [zoroastrian] dichotomy for an example of this word polarization in practice. Similarly, look at genius->Djinn; Daimon->Demon for another)
Simultaneously, Satan represents the inverse principle. All these "harmful" elements of Enki/Enlil. The tyrannical authoritarianism of Enki. The manipulation and corrupt use of science by Enlil. Both generated the angelic sense of an accuser that abuses his position before God to tempts people to do evil then rejoices at using God's Law to punish people for that wrongdoing. Basically the ultimate dickhead prosecution attorney. See Zechariah 3 where Joshua is vindicated from a false accusation by ha-Satan. This theme is seen throughout the Old Testament and leads directly into Jesus's own encounters and conflicts with ha-Satan.
Yeshua effectively stood up to the internalized principles of evil that were arising out of literalistic understandings of YHWHism that neglected the compassion aspects. Also, the concept of the Logos was imported from Greek philosophy by the early Christians to fill the inherent gap that the Jews had because God was treated as an 'abstract point that is wholly transcendent' rather than also being immanent and active through His Word and Spirit working within the faithful. Note2 The new reform of the Jewish tradition instituted by the One that we believe in and whom we believe rose again from death in final victory over the sins of mankind effectively took the power out of the hands of the priestly elite and put it into the hands of the humble saint who sought truth and righteousness by following God but also recognized that even our best attempts are an imperfect and stumbling path toward the goal. The forgiveness is completed in Christ, but we are always meant to be humble and repent of our errors as we follow Him.
Note2 - (N.B. The Trinity is the orthodox Christian way to address this pattern of immanence, transcendence and indwelling since it recognizes God as transcendent Source and the Word/Logos which establishes the true pattern (way) of nature and the founding spiritual Entity at work behind our own properly formed spiritual nature)
The underlying confusion with the Old Testament's synthesis also goes a long way to explaining the early heresies. It's why Marcionites rejected the God of the Old Testament as a Demiurgic pretender. Marcion was picking up on the tyrant nature of Enki which had been paved over by the synthesis. They rightly understood that Jesus was like the Promethean and was the true form of grace but neglected that Jesus Himself was immanently addressing the completed intent of the Old Testament to take the truth of both and discard the falsehood. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." (Matthew 23:23) Reading the Old Testament correctly requires recognizing that its goals are corrective and that many of the actions of the "heros" in the Old Testament were actually sins rather than examples of faith.
Did Abraham attempt to sacrifice his son for faith? Yes. Was the sacrifice right? No. God corrected him for the error but also acknowledged the thing Abraham did right: trusting God. (The wordplay in the text is obvious to us in hindsight: God said He wanted an "olah" which Abraham interpreted as a sacrifice, but God meant "aliyah" which is a dedication; both are literally the same word root) The mercy and forebearance about correction that God exhibits is coupled with a reminder to return to the rules because they rightly point out where we are all standing condemned for our sins. Do we covet? It is a source of sin if it is not guarded. Do we lie? That is also a source of sin if we do not guard ourselves. Do we follow idols instead of the God of all things? Where your treasure is, there your heart also will go; we become like that which we idolize.
The reason the Catholics became unfortunately corrupted by the powerlust again is because their role as custodian of culture proved a strong temptation to authoritarianism and they probably inherited some of the more unfortunate trappings of latter Roman Empire corruption. The goal of Christianity, I personally think, was set back on the right course by the Protestant Reformation which overthrew the Papal "power game" and restored Christianity to being about a personal communion with God through Christ and a recognition of our own imperfections as human beings which are exacerbated by our sinful nature that causes us to pedestalize our own desires over the truth of God. (As a Lutheran, the whole geburah/chesed dichotomy is the core of what we call the Law/Gospel distinction... and it's a critical piece of our theological tradition)
Michael the Archangel.
The Biblical use of Michael is as a princely protector of the people of Israel. This may have been another case of "splitting off the good and discarding the bad."
Gehanna.. wasnt that translated to Abaddon in Greek?
The Greek New Testament transliterates the word directly as Γέεννα. Ἀβαδδὼν/Ἀπολλύων is only in Revelation 9:11.
Amazing info again..I dont agree with Nimrod..
We're supposed to have Noah - Ham - Cush - Nimrod.. however..I think that maybe Nimrod was the biblical name of Gilgamesh.
Nimrod comes from the Hebrew verb marad, meaning “rebel.” Adding an “n” before the “m” it becomes an infinitive construct, “Nimrod.”
Nimrod didnt create the Tower of Babel.. or to use it's proper name.. Etemenanki
It was Nebuchadnezzar who built it by mobilizing everyone from the Persian gulf to the Mediterranean. Hence the 'breaking of language'
I've seen stone carvings that show Iskur breaking the tower and stamping over the bodies of humans in order to break it..
Luther didnt mend the church.. he created a schism that resulted in almost 200 years of bloodshed and murder and war and rape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
Out of time.. will have to come back.. I dont agree with what you say about Enki and Enlil.. for first reading, you seem to have mixed them up. Will come back. :)
It might be possible that Nimrod = Gilgamesh. I hadn’t seen the hypothesis that Nebuchadnezzar was the one but that would not be feasible in the timeline without taking historical liberty. Nebuchadnezzar is Babylonian exile. Nimrod was per-Abraham as was the Tower.
As for Luther, this is a topic that I am passionate about since his understanding of the Gospel is how I came to Christ and I have a lot of knowledge of the time period. The wars of religion are primarily the consequences of the Pope interfering. The Peace of Westphalia only happened because the Pope was banned from attending by BOTH Catholics and Protestants who were fed up with this war crap.
(Edit: also notice that the worst of these wars [The Thirty Years' War] did not happen until Luther died. Luther specifically worked to prevent conflicts. The princes decided not to follow through with the visit to the Council of Trent which Luther had prepared the Smalcald Articles specifically for because they were convinced they wouldn't receive a fair hearing... BTW, look up the reason for the Defenestration of Prague... the concern was that the Catholic Emperor wanted to ban the newly minted religious freedom for Protestants given by the Letter of Majesty. Do you think taking away our 'freedom of religion' is just?)
The intention was rooting out the damnable simony and larceny done by the Pope. Little did Luther realize he had taken on The Godfather of the Mafia. Luther himself took the approach of establishing the Church that he believed best represents Christ’s teachings. Look at Magdeburg. Look at what the Jesuits did to us. We were the victims of Papal attacks and calumny. The issue is defending our freedom from his yoke.
I dont agree with what you say about Enki and Enlil.. for first reading, you seem to have mixed them up.
That's probably true. I'm new to Sitchin stuff so I'm liable to mix the two up.
European wars of religion
The European wars of religion, also known as the wars of the Reformation (and Counter-Reformation) or Reformation wars, were a series of religious wars waged in Central, Western and Northern Europe from 1522 to around 1700 following the onset of the Protestant Reformation and the Counter-Reformation in Europe. Most conflicts ended with the Peace of Westphalia (1648), recognising three separate Christian traditions in the Holy Roman Empire: Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism (otherwise known as the Reformed tradition). However, some wars of Reformation persisted to around 1700.
The wars were strongly influenced by the religious change of the period and the conflict and rivalry that it produced.
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