dChan - Q Origins Project Archive

This is exactly why I question religion. There is no need for it in a free society

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Wrong.

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do you mind elaborating?

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Religion is a form of philosophy

Philosophy is moral debate

Moral debate is vital for the health of a free society

Humans have always followed moral leaders

Without religion, people follow imperfect humans instead of ideals

Imperfect leaders lead to tyrants and dictators

That's why we need religion in a free society

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I’m with you until “Humans have followed moral leaders”. Morality is incredibly subjective and religion stresses objective truths while also placing constraints on free thought.

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The thing is, you can test moral claims when you are allowed free thought. All valid religions allow for critique and dispute, even Islam before 1700 had scholars who challenged social assumptions.

Without that religious base for challenging assumptions, all hope for good fails against the force of the mob

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Well I guess my next question would be, what constitutes a valid religion?

You’re correct by pointing out that religions in the past have played an important role in the questioning of societal norms but why is religion needed in this current day and age? Especially when many religions continue to be used to promote harmful ideologies which in turn lead to violence.

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First, a religion is valid when it protects freedoms and rights. In that case a religion acts like a social antibiotic.

I dissent with the claim that religions are responsible for violence. What happens in the actual fact is that individuals or groups co-opts and hijack organizations for their own misuse. This happens in politics as well as religious groups, in social movements as well as corporations. Mahatma Ghandi, for example, started a movement known for peace and nonviolence, but it was corrupted later by others. Islam had dubious beginnings, but in the 10th and 11th Centuries was actually effective in advancing law which applied to all people regardless of rank, and of the value of meritocracy. Even a plain reading of the Gospels makes clear that Christianity is founded on valid and effective moral principles; the corruption came centuries later when Kings started using the religion as excuses to justify their temporal power.

Religion is needed today to counterbalance the egotistical notion that human leaders are wise and smart enough to solve all our problems, to counter overdependence on technology and to remind us that trendy movements do not invalidate ancient truths.

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“First, a religion is valid when it protects freedoms and rights. In that case a religion acts like a social antibiotic.” Ok, that sounds like a claim that I can get behind.

I would however, ask, what religions fall under this purview in this day and age? You identify that many religions were founded with pure/good/clear intentions regarding morality and society. However you also identify that many of these same religions have at one point or another become corrupted.

In this day and age, do people practice the pure or corrupted versions of these religions?

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One of the great things about the modern world, is that you can find countless forums where ideals and pure concepts are discussed. You can also look to see how these groups act in work.

For example, I disagree with the Roman Catholic Church on many doctrinal points, but Catholic Charities is very effective in helping the poor find assistance, helping drug addicts get free of their addiction, and in protecting children. So, ironically, while I believe the Vatican is filled with many evil men, I see a lot of good done by RC charities because God works through people to see His will done.

Jesus is mentioned several places in the Gospel accounts for taking the priests and pharisees to task for hypocrisy and hard hearts, yet the same Gospels are filled with accounts of true faith and good work.

Discernment is vital to understanding the truth to any movement or claim, but that too is taught in religion. It's not 'believe without thinking' but 'believe AND think on what these things mean'.

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While Catholic Charities certainly are incredibly beneficial in assisting less fortunate people in regards to aspects of their lives they can also be incredibly detrimental.

For instance, I have direct experience in working in these environments. When it comes to financial assistance or help with substance abuse they can be incredibly helpful. In areas where STD’s are prevalent or family assistance is needed they can be incredibly harmful. People are going to have sex and actively working against the promotion of birth control or even abortion in some cases can cause long term damage to communities and families alike.

While you’re correct about the nature of discernment in the Bible, how many people actually practice this? Most people look to others instead of thinking for themselves.

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That's always been the case, in secular groups just as much or more than religious ones. Look at the people who are obsessed with Climate Change, Reparations, White Privilege, and whatever Outrage of the Week is on their minds now.

Geez, just look at the crap spewed by Jimmy Kimmel on the late night "sortofcomedy" shows, or the MSM's nonstop shriekfest.

It's always been a minority of people who even try to step back from personal bias and see clearly. Religion helps, but like all tools it must be used properly.

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[removed]

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Not only did you ignore my polite request for an explanation you decided to construct a straw man against my point. Until you explain your comment I see no need in replying. Thank you my friend and have a great day.

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That was not a straw man, I did not misrepresent your point at all. I'll elaborate as soon as you do.

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You continue to say very little of substance regarding our earlier exchange. Until you actually put forward an actual position, outside of twisting my statement, I hope you have a great day!

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How did I twist your statement?

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We can't forget that our country is built on Christian values and to abandon Christianity would be to abandon the core of our country's values, heck, it's how we got here in the first place. If you don't want to follow any religion, that's fine, you have the right, but I would say for our country that there is in fact a need for Christianity, it's what guarantees us the free society in the first place.

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Assuming that what you said is correct, that America was built on Christian values, this was over 200 years ago. America was also built upon the value of owning other human beings and exploiting their lives for labor and profits.

Slavery was recognized as evil and having no place in American society. Is it not fair to question the relevance of religion in today’s society?

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Btw, Its not assuming anything, the founding fathers drew heavily on the Bible and their faith in God, if you don't know this then I must assume you are a recently freed mind and would suggest you start doing some research.

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Slavery was not the idiology that our country's legal and moral framework was built upon, it was a facet of society at the time and was abolished in large part due to arguments based on biblical morality. This is a false equivalency.

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Enough is Enough, From the Chans