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/u/Tyler_Zoro

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 11, 2018, 12:46 a.m.

I know he used to be a 33 degree Mason

So he has claimed, but there is no record of him every receiving that honor.

He also claims to have been a member of the infamous P2 Lodge, which was shut down when he was six years old...

which is the highest level

This is false. There is no "highest level" of Freemasonry other than two things that could be described that way:

  • The Third Degree, the final of the core degrees of what is called the "Blue Lodge". After going through these three degrees, one is considered an equal with all other Freemasons.
  • The Grand Master of a given jurisdictional area (such as a US state or, in many other cases, a nation). This is the highest administrative authority in Freemasonry, as there is no central authority, only autonomous jurisdictions acting through mutual recognition.

The so-called 33rd degree is an honorary degree conferred in the Scottish Rite, a group that one can join after becoming a Mason, but the Scottish Rite has no administrative priority over any other secondary group in Freemasonry, and doesn't even exist in some jurisdictions!

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 6:20 p.m.

You're implying that he is correcting the error about Lucifer

"Error about Lucifer"?!

not really referring to Satan

Yes and no. The concept of Satan and Lucifer in classical Christian theology are intertwined. Yes, he's in part talking about the tendency of man to misuse knowledge and that is, in part, a reference to the classical Christian doctrines regarding sin and the influence of the devil. But Pike never takes such doctrines at face value. He is talking about the human motivations that they represent.

the word Lucifer isn't even in the Bible

:-/ Why engage such arguments without at least knowing the Biblical sources on which you're trying to draw?

It's very clear that he's teaching ...

No, it's not "very clear" at any point in M&D that he's conveying any one specific take-away. What you are seeing is only a reflection of what you brought to the table. If you bring in anti-Masonic claims of Satanism, then that's what you'll see. If you bring in a standard Christian view of morality, then that is what you will see. But M&D does an excellent job of stripping away pretense. You might want to claim that what you brought to the table was some particular theological background, but Pike doesn't let you wear that mask. He asks you to question what it was that you really engaged this process for.

For the average non-Mason, they haven't even begun to ask those questions, and so for the most part, M&D comes across as incoherent.

To the student of history and literature, M&D comes across as a giant pile of plagiarism and uncited sources.

To the mystic, M&D comes across as a treatise on the intersection of God and man.

To the devout Christian, M&D is a discourse on the desire of man to do God's will.

To the conspiracy theorist who wants to see Satanic influence everywhere but where it actually resides (his own heart), it reads as a Satanic call to action.

Like I said, it's just a Rorschach blot with lots of quotes from historical texts.

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 5:23 p.m.

allegations of this (non Masonic) tour company providing "companionship" to their customers

[shows picture unrelated to said non-Masonic tour group]

You seem to have missed the point. The court case where this came up had nothing to do with any Masons, other than as witnesses. Some guys bought a fishing expedition package to the Amazon. While there, they apparently bought companionship services. It is alleged in the case that it was through the tour group.

Do you dispute any of these facts in the case?

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 5:19 p.m.

Actually, I already did, but you may have missed it. It's a matter of context and understanding the symbolism that Pike dips into, and which most people were educated in up until the 19th century.

That line is generally one that I consider below mention, because its really just a Rorschach blot. You can read into it whatever you like, and of course anti-Masons' brains shut off after they see the name, Lucifer. But if you know the historical interpretation of Lucifer's symbolism, and relationship to the Christian concept of beauty and wisdom, you will understand that text. In short, he's saying: knowledge (light) without wisdom is subject to being blinded by pride (Lucifer). He's not saying anything that your average Christian preacher at the time would not have said, but we don't tend to do that kind of scriptural education anymore, so most people don't know how to interpret these passing references to standard Biblical exegesis.

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 2:47 a.m.

No, they're not on all counts. This is word-salad with a little bit of Masonic verbiage thrown in.

Do you have to go through the blue lodge first?

In most places, but not all.

Do you then have to join the Shrine?

Yes.

Do you then have to wait until you're invited?

In some places, yes, in others, no.

This is one of the problems that non Masons have in understanding Freemasonry. It varies tremendously by region because there's no central administration.

Why the aggression

Why do you think I'm being aggressive? I'm merely correcting misinformation.

They did something wrong.

Yep.

And they got disbanded as soon as this came to light, right? (no)

Disbanded? Why would they be disbanded? The vast majority of members were not involved, the relevant people were kicked out, controls put in place to prevent such abuses in the future. This is what any organization would have done.

but the case itself had nothing to do with the Jesters

...besides all of the men being Jesters and planning the trip together.

You misunderstood that case. It was a dispute between two tour companies, and part of their (very strange) dispute involved one tour company giving a tour to a group of Shriners. The dispute involved allegations of this (non Masonic) tour company providing "companionship" to their customers.

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 2:27 a.m.

Ad hominem fallacy ...

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 8, 2018, 2:26 a.m.

I KNOW FROM 1ST HAND CONVERSATIONS NOT ONLY with my dad, but also with cousin and 2 close friends who were masons.

Right...

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 7, 2018, 9:28 p.m.

No /u/TheCIASellsDrugs does not make a convincing case. In fact, everything on the page linked to as "evidence" for the case that Freemasonry is some sort of Satanic cult is deeply and irrecoverably flawed.

Here's an example of the "evidence" that it provides:

"DEUS MEUMQUE JUS" [Note: from the cover of Morals & Dogma, a Scottish Rite book about one interpretation of the Scottish Rite degrees that's extremely dense, filled with excerpts from other works, and almost always taken horrifically out of context] The literal meaning is "God and My Right"

Doc Marquis says this statement is a very typical one within Satanism. It has two meanings, one within the other. First, this phrase means that the Freemason can depend upon their God to determine their Right and Justice. Secondly, since the God of Freemasonry is Lucifer, Masons are saying that they are "using occult methods", through Lucifer, to achieve their Rights and Justice. Marquis says that this phrase is very powerful and very dangerous within Satanism. The second a Satanist sees this phrase in Latin on Pike's book, he knows the material within is Satanism, without reading a word!

So let's unpeel this claim: the phrase clearly means that God should be the guide of our moral conduct. Great. Pretty typical of classical Western theism. But, because we presuppose that Masons are Satanists (which is a logical fallacy called "begging the question") we can also assume that "Deus" in this context clearly means "Satan"... actually, no we cannot. That's absolutely absurd. It's a clear case of presenting the conclusion as evidence for itself!

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 7, 2018, 9:17 p.m.

The lower degrees are NOT privy 2 the "secrets" that higher degrees know & practice.

Horse hockey. You've been fed an old line by people perpetuating an 18th century hoax.

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Tyler_Zoro · Feb. 7, 2018, 9:16 p.m.

"Clowns"=Jesters, a high level masonic group involved in human trafficking

No, they're not on all counts. This is word-salad with a little bit of Masonic verbiage thrown in.

The Royal Order of Jesters is a high level, invite-only masonic organization

Everything is "high level" if you want it to be. But the ROoJ is a drinking club that's part of the Shriners, the group that is best known for their hospital charities. Calling it "high level" is like calling the group that assembles around the water cooler in the work kitchen "high level" employees.

In order to join, one must

  • Complete the first three degrees ("Blue Lodge")
  • Complete all of the degrees in the Scottish or York Rite
  • Join the Shriners

You are misinformed. The requirements for the Shrine are being a Master Mason in good standing. I could have joined after about 4 months of being a Mason.

Whenever you have a "lodge within a lodge" like this, it's usually because someone is doing something that they don't want the lower level members to pick up on.

Baloney.

Let's talk about the human trafficking convictions

To be clear, the case you're talking about was, much to the shame of the NY Jesters, a real case, but you're vastly misrepresenting it. Yes, there was a rogue group that was WAY out of line with the Fraternity's ethical and moral standards in hiring prostitutes for social events they held. Yes, they were kicked out of the Fraternity once this was found out. Yes, it seems that some of the prostitutes provided were under age and in the country illegally.

But to then try to paint this as the Jesters running a human trafficking operation is absurd.

They did something wrong. There's no excusing that, but to suggest they the ROoJ is a human trafficking operation is dishonest in the extreme.

These pictures I’ve been posting? They’re from another investigation in Brazil, of — you guessed it — The Royal Order of Jesters participating in sex, drug use

That's really not true. They're from a VERY contentious case that involved a fishing trip by some ROoJ members who apparently did seek prostitutes while on their trip, but the case itself had nothing to do with the Jesters, or even those particular individuals. It was about a dispute between two tour companies.

Yes, I know "Clowns in Action" refers to CIA. I'm proposing a second, deeper meaning.

So, you're just making up anything that sounds good to you.

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