>>18366921
I think this is going to be a very important exercise for Russia. It will be Russia signalling that it still has friends, that it's not crippled by sanctions, that it can project its power, that it still has a powerful navy despite what's happening in Ukraine. And so I think Russia will use this as a huge propaganda coup.
South Africa has different reasons for undertaking these exercises, but it is playing into that narrative.
Do you think ultimately it could be harmful to South Africa?
We had Janet Yellen in South Africa, the U.S. Treasury Secretary, a couple of weeks ago, and she said it's ill-advised and will be problematic. I don't know whether there'll be lost investment or any trade retaliation by Western countries. It's too early to tell. But I know that they're really not happy with these exercises taking place on the very anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The timing is not lost on anyone, certainly. And I'm just wondering how South Africa has been addressing concerns about that timing, but also that it's doing these with Russia in the first place.
This is not the first time. They had joint exercises in 2019, but the world looked different. And Russia was still occupying parts of eastern Ukraine then, but the new offensive that we saw in February hadn't happened yet.
South Africa also argues that it's done military drills with the U.S. at least four times in the last decade, it does military drills with France, and that it's balancing its relations with different powers.
What about South African people? How do they feel about these exercises taking place?
There's been quite a lot of opposition … particularly the Democratic Alliance [party] has really slammed the [African National Congress] government for this.
It's difficult to know what the public feels, but I think many are really scratching their heads and saying, can South Africa still be asserting that it has a non-aligned stance when it is taking part in these exercises? … We don't have as much polling as I would like in South Africa to know.
There is actually a lot of support among South African citizens on social media, etc. There is a constituency that believes that this is a war between NATO and Russia and that NATO's encroaching on Russia's sphere of influence and that Russia is justified in what it's doing.
Two foreign ministers representing Russia and South Africa shake hands
Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, left, and his South Africa counterpart Naledi Pandor shake hands after a joint news conference following their talks in Pretoria, South Africa on Jan. 23, 2023. (Russian Foreign Ministry Press Service via AP)
Do you think that people in the West are not realizing how this conflict is perceived outside of Europe and North America?
The UN votes tell a story that Africa has been split down the middle. We've also seen these high-level visits from the Russians and the Americans to Africa in the last six months. And so if they didn't know it before, I think the message is getting through.
Can South Africa really claim neutrality at this point?
I think it's very difficult. I think people are doubting that.
There have just been signs that in the pronouncements of [South African President Cyril Ramaphosa], in the refusal to condemn the invasion, and the way and that South Africa has voted — it abstained on all the UN General Assembly votes — all of these are signs that it is not neutral in this conflict and that it is leaning towards Russia.
What else could this relationship bring to South Africa?
South Africa really identifies with the positions that Russia and China are advocating in the global arena. There may be support for a reformed Security Council and an African seat — or in fact several African seats, permanent seats on the council — so there's a geopolitical game.
I think South Africa has an ideological affinity to China and Russia. I think they see a lot of hypocrisy in that the West has launched many invasions and there hasn't been the same hue and cry. And that the Russian call for a multipolar world rather than a unipolar world resonates with South Africa.
There's a lot of reasons. There is history. The Soviet Union was a big supporter of the African National Congress, which is now in government, and I think there's some nostalgia for that era.
Protesters in Cape Town hold signs reading 'Keep Russian wars away from our shores.'
Protesters from the Ukrainian Association of South Africa and Extinction Rebellion demonstrate in Cape Town on February 17, 2023, against South Africa's 10-day routine joint military exercise with Russia and China along its eastern coast. (Gianluigi Guercia/AFP via Getty Images)
Relationships have to be nurtured over time. What has the West not done, in your view, to get it to this point?
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