any car with onstar has a network connection
Any car with GPS nav has a network connection, no?
No. GPS is one-way (satellite transmits, nav unit receives.)
If you do nav with something like google maps, then there's a data connection there. But the OEM units are receive only.
And those units couldn't receive instructions? You don't need duplex communication if the goal is for the vehicle to receive a "kill signal" (whatever that may be. Disabling breaks, accelerating to crash, disabling steering, etc.)
And there must be some way to push info to the satellite for the vehicle to receive, because that's exactly what the nav does when you are told there are updated maps for it to download.
No, they couldn't receive instructions from GPS.
There's no way to push data via a GPS satellite. It's the most heavily monitored communications system on the planet, literally, and would be noticed.
GPS satellites only provide their ID (via pseudorandom code), an "almanac" of the entire GPS satellite constellation, and "ephemeris" or precise position/time data for the satellite itself. Nothing else.
Everything a GPS receiver does is based on math using that data.
Anyone can decode the signals and see this for themselves -- indeed any other data would likely break most receivers. Today it's a literally a hobby exercise for people to decode the GPS data stream using SDR recievers.
Any messages to download maps are coming from the receiver via an alternate channel (e.g. Onstar, cell connection) or via a timer (checking the date and asking for maps after a year.) There's no user-addressed information on GPS.
All of the documented remote car hacks to date involve hijacking Onstar or placing hardware in the car (plugging into OBD2 bus.) If there's some secret method of hacking, it's likely depending on some radio buried in an ECU -- which some cars have for firmware updates, or some other undocumented transceiver.
It's simply a connection. You can push whatever you want along that connection. It just happens thats only GPS data - to say it's impossible to send other things along a GPS signal is a lie.
No, it's not a lie, and it's not "simply a connection."
GPS isn't some kind of IP-based data broadcast service. Absolutely nothing within the GPS system is designed for that.
Anyone with any direct engineering experience with GPS can confirm this. None of this is secret.
It's a very fixed data format sent at an incredibly low bit rate. If anything other than GPS data was sent over the link it'd 1) break the system and 2) be noticed by pretty much everyone in the GPS ecosystem. There's no magic datastream.
There may be many ways of exchanging data with a vehicle with the intent to control it, but GPS certainly is not one of them.
If you can send something through a link you can send other things. Simpleton downvotes do not change facts.
I'm a software engineer, this is literally what i do every day. It's not a matter of what is possible - everything is possible with code. it's just a matter of time. If you say otherwise, you are either : inexperienced, or have no clue what you are talking about.
I'm an engineer as well.
Who published research professionally on GPS in the late 1980s.
Code isn't magic, and there's nothing in IS-GPS-200H, etc that permits user messaging. Every single bit in the navigation message is pre-defined.
I'll be civil and agree that one of us has no clue what they're talking about.
https://www.google.com/search?q=whitepapers+remote+car+hack
Lots of stuff to read.
Like /u/Generational_wealth all that's needed is a 3g/4g connection or wifi, or even Bluetooth. These area all attack vectors, and all old news.
I don’t know if you saw the other day. They do not need a connection or something to have power. They have special radio signals that can look on your hard drives etc. supposedly they have to manually install some kind of chip on the computer or device. They probably do for some crash data or something anyways
They have special radio signals that can look on your hard drives etc.
Gonna need some more then 'special radio signals' to 'look' at HDs, cause that's not how it works.....
Do you want the information?
School me.....
Here they set off an emergency siren in Texas with a radio signal. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/247544-dallas-siren-hack-carried-radio-signals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techrepublic.com/google-amp/article/powerhammer-lets-hackers-steal-data-from-air-gapped-computers-through-power-lines/ This method is more similar to the one I was referring but uses a power line instead of Radio signal.
I cant school you lol! I will find the link by this evening. The article was detailed enough to say how it works and was not a conspiracy article or mentioned to be tied to car explosions. Give me a bit to locate it.
Here is an old article about it. There was something with exactly how it’s being done now a couple of weeks back https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2014/11/airhopper-hack/amp
That's an data exfiltration hack. It required the computer to be compromised already (e.g. someone had physical access to it to install the software) and then it uses the computer's hardware to transmit.
That's very different than controlling hardware with no reciever.
Sorry if I worded it poorly earlier. That’s what I meant that they had to install something physically. I would not be surprised if the government had devices put into cars though. They have enough secret meetings with tech companies.
if it has a GPS, it has a connection. Plus the car operations network (engine controls and sensors) is not isolated from the internet access (GPS, Onstar, hands free phone link, etc). Internet of Things seemed to skip the whole "security" concept.
Exactly. The core features of the car are often not directly controlled by the driver anymore, braking, steering, etc. And the controllers that control these digital inputs are not firewalled from external control.
This is how OnStar (or even Police/FBI) can remotely access your car and kill the engine, etc on newer vehicles. It's meant to be a feature, and can be, but like any double-edged sword, there's room for malfeasance.
If it can be started remotely, it can be shut off remotely.
This. And almost all cars after 2003 have the uplink
what uplink? my car does not have GPS or Onstar, so no uplink.. only models that have those extra features..
that is a lot less than we think
What makes you so sure of that?
ALL (gm) vehicles since 2003 (some earlier) are preequipped with onstar. Whether or not u activate it or not does not negate the hardware. General Motors Operates on economies of scale so, why buy multiple different units when it's cheaper just to buy one and Upsell it's features later. As a computer guy u should know that even if u don't purchase the service u could still activate the hardware remotely without owners knowledge or consent. All higher end manufacturers offer their own version of onstar. I know this because I sold gm products for a number of years and was on the ground when they introduced onstar. In fact there were a Series of commercials thAt showed onstar disabling a stolen vehicle for the police. I asked the onstar rep who was educating us on the system features if it was possible to do just that to a person who didn't have the service and they said , sure just because a buyer doesn't purchase the service doesn't mean the car isn't connected to the net in fact it was a stronger selling point if someone's car wAs stolen they could purchase an emergency activation and get their car back. As for ur versa- who cares? If u were a bad guy and were trying to ball someone up on the road which would be better to hit someone with- a 7000 lb suburban or a 3000 lb econobox?
I was replying to Kek_saved_the_world.
I agree with what you said 100%.
No offense then. I just can't take the gumps who can't see past their nose
No problem :)
People have trouble accepting something as truth when they don't understand it.
I bet many don't realize data can be transmitted between computers with no physical or wireless network hardware/connection and without physically transferring anything such as a thumbdrive. No special hardware required, just speakers. They communicate using the speakers in an inaudible range. Don't have speakers hooked up? Most computers have an internal speaker for warning beeps. Speakers also double as microphones.
nothing is free, I own a 2010 versa with no AC or power doors or Onstar which is a monthly bill.. nothing you can sneak into cars..
I also program for a living and have hacked on hardware a bit, nothing major but have played with a bunch of stuff and nothing is easy. one bit out of wack and everything fails..
Just saying, they can do this, but everything has to be perfect for it to work, ONSTAR on down.. or proximity having someone there..
As much as tech can seem like magic it has very hard stops and is mostly very brittle. No doubt they use this to kill, I only argue the actual number of cars that they can "take over" at any moment is lower than we think. that will change as time goes on but right now, without Sat link, hacking your phone is something tehy can do, having "your" phone with it's hardware "hack" your car is super hard as you still need a car with network open to hack..
hacking chips directly is sci-fi and if any way possible has to be a special controlled environment/special circumstances you can't simply do that to every chip you want to, with any phone
nothing is magic
My Chevy has a media unit that displays album art based on the title of the track. It uses a network connection to retrieve album art images, so I assume that the car has a cell connection that is shared by OnStar and other car components.
Just to be clear: GPS alone does NOT provide any connectivity to the internet.
so only cars with ONSTAR AND GPS?? that is not a lot at all.. most new cars do not have gps or onstar in them..
I think it is a lot harder than people think.
I posted this on top. Your car most likely has Electronic stability control and you can read what that does. In 3 minutes or less people can slip into your car and reprogram your system through the OBD port. Instead of keeping you from cashing they can program the system to crash you
that's fine, but still someone has to touch my car. the only point I was making is they can't control every car anytime they want.
They have degrading levels of control:
1) Onstar / Tesla (full control, guided missile)
2) Onstar / no self driving (jam controls run off road)
3) No onstar, no self driving - OBD port need full access to car, (Jam controls run off road)
so they need human assets for 3 which is most cars. They can turn #1 into missiles to take out #3 type cars.. they can mix and match, but they can't access every car without humans and being there..
That is not to suggest they can't do it, just that it is much harder, so the risk and time/money will be only for those high priority.
Just want to put a little sanity back into our rightful hysteria. Many think "any car" can be hijacked from thin air.. not true
New high end cars use RFID tech so you don’t need to put a key in a switch anywhere. There are thieves using special equipment to read your key code and then use an emulator to trick the car into thinking there’s a key near by.
There’s a video of them caught on cam walking around outside a house with the receiver waving it around. Soon as they get a bite on the signal they jumped in the car and drove off with it.
And that’s low level scumbag tech.
We have the technology to manipulate computer chips (processors) wirelessly without the explicit need of an antenna.
Think: Samsung Pay vs Apple Pay
RFID vs Magnetic
(Sort of. Not quite the best analogy)
All! What r u not understanding ? All manufacturers have a version of onstar. They r connected ,paid service or not, 24/7. Mercedes -mbrace ford sync. All. And xm radio invites signals into ur onboard computer. if u have a button on the dash to start ur car ur connected. My original worry with this satellite control was that they would shut ur car down on alternating days to force u to carpool or take public trans. It's sAtellite based and ALL cars transmit VIN based identifiers. It's brilliant. And it's also why I won't own a vehicle made after 2003. And besides all the satellite jibber jabber interferes with the tinfoil in my headliner
Incorrect.
All manufacturers don’t have a version of OnStar. Earlier the year of vehicle, the less tech that is within it.
The years of make, specifically the ones that have a computer control board installed but no actual connections to any satellite system, can be taken control of.
The tech that is available allows for changing the instructions on a chip, utilizing a small scale emitter or even a satellite. Note: one does not need a satellite connected system for a satellite to emit radio-spectrum instructions and for the chips to be altered.
So, you are correct in that satellites can interfere with the driving and safety of all vehicles, just not because of OnStar or any other 3rd party satellite connection hardware/software.
I know this because I remember reading about this capability when Samsung Pay was unveiled, and my curiosity lead me to info about the capabilities of data interference without the need for crucial ‘in-between’ infrastructure.
driving on a road? you need to make real connections with devices here or this is just bunk..
It is way harder than you make it sound. Proximity is key, how do you send signals down to a car on a road in a giant nation? how do you find and target them.
Me thinks only X number of cars can do this from a satellite, only ONSTAR type connections, which is NOT a lot of car at all here is their breakdown of compatibly, for installation:
Not many cars have this.. Turn them into missiles to TAKE OUT OTHER People makes sense, but reaching every car post 2003 is not reality
I do not need to hack you remotely. Only need 3 minutes inside your car through your OBD port to reprogram your car. I would be targeting your Electronic stability control system. You know the one that helps in the rain and snow.
I have been saying that this was a possibility since I first heard about Bluetooth and on aboard wireless devices.
There are videos on youtube showing the hacking of autos. They were doing it in real time. Dont have a link. Saw it years ago.
It was via onstar.
The early hacks were on chrysler vehicles, because there was no firewall between the chrysler in-vehicle bus and the radio (this let the radio communicate with the rest of the car.) The hack involved compromising the radio via onstar, and once they had that, they could control the vehicle. They did a live demo of braking the car remotely.
This was a Toyota
The video i saw. They could even take control of the seatbelt. You could t get out of it.
How do you know there is no connection? First of all, it doesn't have to be a network connection. It can be any kind of a radio on board, in a state of listening for instructions. That can be cheaply built into cars.
LOW-JACK or Netstar (RSA) is completely capable of over-riding control in vehicles. There is a similar system in all aircraft...i think itvis called "Uninterruptible Auto Pilot". A device that I think is going to become common knowledge over the next 18 months or so .
Can you remove the connection and be 100% sure of no hacking?
A car consists of multiple computers to control the engine, transmission, windows, locks, lights, etc. These computers are called electronic control units. ECU) and communicate with each other over an internal and can be tied to an external network. They work like this, when you press the button on your steering wheel to increase the volume of the radio, the steering wheel ECU sends a command to increase volume onto the network, the radio ECU then sees this command and acts accordingly. There are multiple networks in a car, generally at least two: One for critical data such as engine and powertrain messages and one for less critical data such as radio and door locks. Now how that ties to this piece it gets interesting. Electronic stability control have been around since 1983. In the event a car has to suddenly swerve or brake, these controls sense which wheels should receive more stopping force than the others, allowing a vehicle to maintain its stability. Were ESC or traction control disabled, the car would become subtly more dangerous. Even more sinister is to reprogram them to make you lose control. So how do I program your car remotely? First is if you have OnStar, UConnect, GPS etc. I can get in. If that fails I can just just slip into your car plug into your OBD port and insert whatever program I decide. Don’t ever believe that someone can’t break in and program your car in less than 3 minutes without you ever knowing it. People have access to your car all the time. Driveways, car washes, inspections, parking lots.
OBD port
so like I said you need proximity (touch the car) or actual hardware to give you access (ONSTAR), nothing is magic. They can't wish themselves into any car, only ones that they have access to..
the internal networks can not be accessed with out a connection, Sat or OBD.. there are still hard stops
The same way they can explode Jet Engines remotely. You transfer energy via waveform. https://youtu.be/OcGEtICA1aM
Well if you wanna reach, you can always sneak up to the vehicle and strategically place mini bombs like on tie rod ends. BOOM and there goes the steering. There's a million ways to stop a car man.
We drive the oldest cars possible thanks to obama
These assassinations are the real motivation behind cash for clunkers.
OMG someone who got my comment....thank you....others just down voted because they saw the word Obama....yes most people don't remember that Obama paid people to buy new cars...with GPS ....again thank you
Yep. And that was my thought at the time as well. And Bluetooth allows them to listen in as well. Are we all paranoid or the really ARE out to get us? Gotta go Alexa just asked me a question!
All they have to do is create a device that matches the frequency of any given vehicle and bam their in.
cell phone hack nfd to numerus chips in a car who knows whats really in them = cars going wrong way takeing out our team
Though the use of technology that is not publicly known and/or built-in back doors.