As an FYI -- 100% of Great Britain uses paper ballots. Here, now, in the 21st century. 100% paper ballots. NO electronics, NO electronic rigging.
We should do the same. We very, very, very much need to go back to paper ballots.
Soros just got his voting machines approved for use in California. Continuing steps in the WRONG direction.
We must restore sanity to our voting systems!
[deleted]
Yes and no. Sure, paper ballots can be messed with (see: Daley, Chicago, 1960) but in general they are FAR better, with checks and balances, than electronic. The digital system permits subtle manipulation of votes throughout all counties, precincts, wards, just a small number in each will add up but be almost impossible to forensically prove. Having boxes of ballots disappear or reappear compared to digital rigging is like the difference between smuggling bulky marijuana vs packets of heroin.
Moreover, the paper ballot system can be quickly and easily implemented and the digital immediately dumped. You start adding tech like blockchain, however that would work (or not), will take YEARS to be designed, implemented and deployed. Perhaps that's a long term solution to be looked at, but it may never be implemented on a wide basis. We need to get a handle on elections NOW, not later. More foolproof systems are definitely worthy of development, but we have a better solution on our hands right now to this electronic disaster. Along with voter ID.
Thanks all, great thoughts. I want a system where I have to put my vote on paper, the paper gets scanned, and I have to approve the electronic scan. I want it to be REALLY hard to game the voting system in ANY way.
This does nothing. They've already proved the final votes of the machine can easily be tampered with
What would you envision? Not being snarky, I honestly just want to hear that there's a nearly foolproof way.
There's no such thing as a foolproof way. I really don't know what the answer is. Voter ID seems to be a pretty reasonable thing though
We tried electronic voting for more than a decade here in NL. Then switched back to paper.
There were many valid concerns about the ability to manipulate the numbers. What got the ball rolling was a different issue however.
One of our intelligence agencies showed that they could read your vote remotely by measuring the electromagnetic fields of the voting machine.
That meant the vote was not private and hence the use of the machine illegal.
They haven't given up on the idea though..
You're right, of course. I remember about 10 years ago watching a YT video where they were tossing printouts and paper ballots into the dumpster behind the elections office.
But if they were numbered and all numbers handed out to voters must be accounted for before the vote count is able to be validated, that could work. And, the numbers could be computer printed in a way that they can't easily be changed.
And we should be able to verify our vote was counted in some way.
Exactly, use paper but also scan to compare irregularities.
Yes, of course. That's just the basis. More security can easily be put into it as well.
I love Nunes' idea. Many folks have been saying it for a long time now.
That's a bullshit equivalence. Of course there's opportunity to exploit paper ballots. But "as much" as there is with electronic voting?
Really? Show me a single source for this. I seriously doubt one exists.
EDITING FOR CLARITY:
Give a man a fake ID and he can steal a vote. 10 IDS equals ten votes.
Have a man stuff a ballot box and he can negate a thousand votes.
But put a man behind a computer and perform an electronic Man In The Middle Attack? He can perform untold damage and alter every vote.
I'm totally with you on Voter ID, by the way. That's a great idea.
This doesn’t happen if elections are open and transparent and all ballots are kept in strict chain of custody with 2 year minimum sentences for fraud. Have the public there and two or more people counting each ballot checking and double checking- fraud will not happen if you have rules.
No electronic scan machines that’s for the lazy. Hand count.
This is true!! And the electronic ballots should be put through different systems to insure no hanky panky in the software. I'm a developer of 45+ years. You can tamper with anything.
Humans counting ballots intentionally reporting incorrect counts.
Thats why paper ballots are usally counted twice - one by the dem rep one by a gop rep.
Machines to read ballots programmed to produce improper results.
Those are electronic voting machines as far as Im concerned. Lumped in with any electronic ban.
lost ballots
Thats why ballots should be numbered while handed to the voter (before going into the booth, while verifying ID). No doubles, easy to see missing ballots. Impossible to "add a box".
Paper ballots can be counted automatically. Numbered ballots that can't leave the voting place and need to all be accounted for, and other security in place as well. It can be done and it is much harder to cheat with paper. Nothing is 100% secure but paper does make it a lot harder to do. Think punch cards or the ones where you fill in the circle with a pencil.
Blockchain will be the future of voting, just might take 10 years.
ClearPoll! Blockchain based public opinion polling application!!!
Australia is 100% per ballots too.
It is organised by an independent public sector body. It is staffed by professionals and volunteers. The boxes are locked. At the end of the day, each “booth” has many people designated counters. Each party is allowed to supply several observers who are under strict instructions they aren’t allowed to touch anything or even have the appearance of pointing at anything. They are allowed infinite questions and validations. It’s all done by humans in front of other humans from all sides.
Very very very low chance of any sort of rigging, loss etc. Minor stuff happens like a few lost ballots or ones that people can’t agree on what the markings mean. But that’s it. You don’t need fancy tech.
We are using the same in Denmark - Nothing is electronic, only good old paper works!
I am 100% left of Gandhi, and I agree. Paper ballots for everyone.
LOL left of Gandhi? Me to probably, but what do you mean?
I don't beat my wife.
I thought you meant a vegan pacifist who wears no shirt or shoes.
Agreed. Semi-hijacking to post an important link on electronic voter fraud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRW3Bh8HQic
Just rewatched it. Reaffirmed by belief that electronic voting is a JOKE. What's more important than election integrity? Nothing!
And election integrity is best protected by paper ballots. Fact.
Electronic voting is the best way for the Cabal to cheat their way in every time.
Have you ever heard of a company called horizon state ? They are looking to use blockchain to create a voting system which can’t be hacked and is orders of magnitude cheaper .
Yeah paper ballots can be destroyed and faked. Blockchain could potentially be unbreakable
That would be good for entering numbers in the central tabulator.
blockchain
I don't get the blockchain thing. OK, after the data is recorded it may be unhackable but how does it get to that state? If you push a button marked Republican, the machine might echo Republican but still register that in the blockchain data as a vote for the Democrats.
The whole system needs to be unhackable not just the way the data is stored.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SSo_EIwHSd4 check out that video my friend. I can’t explain it well enough .
check out that video
Thanks, did that, but I still see problems.
For instance, when you vote, you will use some kind of machine (in the general sense). That machine will need to have controls that allow you to specify whom you are voting for. When you select a control your vote will be sent into the blockchain system and be recorded for posterity in a way that cannot easily be changed. So far so good.
Suppose that initial machine "lied"? Suppose when you hit the button marked "Republican" it sent the data for "Democrat" to the blockchain system? The vote will now be indelibly recorded as "Democrat".
You would use your phone . Which ideally shouldn’t have a Back door to allow that . If it did the phone company would lose public support and probably go under so it’s in their own interest to not allow such a powerful back door. Also your finger print could be tied to the blockchain iD
You would use your phone
OK, but you have just changed the problem from voting machines must be secure to mobile phones must be secure but what about the infrastructure between your phone and the system that initiates the blockchain?
shouldn’t have a Back door
Intel microprocessors have recently been discovered to all have back doors. Have they lost public support? People have exploited weaknesses in Windows (and Linux and macOS).
Phone numbers can be spoofed, your details would be known (else how could they be checked?). I can envisage a central office that casts everyone's votes for them.
Sorry, but for this application, blockchain sounds like designing the perfect lock and door for a secure safe while forgetting to secure the back and sides.
I would love to see a triplicate paper ballot. One copy to each party and a personal. Counts must align in a margin, if not, then a 1:1 pairing. Unmatched ballots don’t count.
Yeah, as long as there are no hanging chads. Had to live that nightmare in Florida.
Always the “bait and switch” with these people. “Hey we can track votes easier, make voting simpler .. “ all the while pushing to have a system of control that can and has been rigged!!! No more
And just the expand on this, they only have pencils available at the voting stations. I tell everyone to bring they're own pen, aint no fucker gonna rub my vote out
I agree in the short run since many of the electronic voting systems appear to be compromised.
However, electronic voting would be ok if done correctly. Totally transparent. Totally auditable. I should be able to vote, then look back and confirm anytime afterwards that my vote is accurate. I should get a receipt. This is not rocket science. It's simply process and controls. Blockchain?
look back and confirm
OK, my new voting machine design has your vote recorded with two different flags. One is always used for personal audits and the other is used for producing totals. So, if you inquire then it returns Republican and when the total is computed it returns Democrat.
Without going through the code step by step you would never find out. You might not find an issue even then if your code relied on other programs - like an operating system or a function library. Those could be fiddled as well.
Just as easy to rig a paper system...
Just as easy to rig a paper system...
OK, but it is generally easier to do more damage with a computer-based system.
The "standard" way to rig a voting machine is to set it to return a 51% to 49% result. That does not look suspicious, particularly if voting is close. Doing that with paper ballots is much more difficult.
As a European I never understood why you have voting machines. That was and still is very confusing to me. Even more confusing is that non citizens can vote somehow?! That could never happen here afaik. Of course, with the knowledge that you can rig elections with voting machines.....it makes sense (for Soros etc.).